This week visually impaired Paralympian Ness Murby is back to talk about how visual impairments work in his para athletics event, the discus. Ness told about the classification process, the importance of having a sports assistant, and who was more popular at the Rio 2016 Paralympics, him or his service dog Lexington.
Ness and his assistant (and wife) Eva have qualified for Tokyo via the World Champs, but they have to get through team selection and hopefully automatic selection at the Canadian nationals this summer.
Our TKFLASTAN Update includes news from:
- Marnie McBean
- Nate Bartholomay
- Andrew Maraniss
- Nick Cunningham
- Lauren Gibbs
- Clare Egan (check out Clare in Down East magazine!)
- Shiva Keshavan
Throughout 2021 we’re revisiting great stories from Atlanta 1996! For our Atlanta 1996 moment this week, we talked about the amazing story of Indian tennis player Leander Paes. When you’re done listening to our show, go listen to The Tennis Podcast’s revisit of Atlanta 1996 and their interview with him and other medalists.
We also have Games Updates from Tokyo 2020, Beijing 2022 and Paris 2024.
Thanks so much for listening, and until next time, keep the flame alive!
Photo courtesy of Ness Murby.
TRANSCRIPT
Note: This is an uncorrected machine-generated transcript and may contain errors. Please check its accuracy against the audio. Do not quote from the transcript; use the audio as the record of note.
Episode 171: Ness Murby – VI
Ness Murby: [00:00:00] Having a, a guide is, is a huge part of my performance. My preparation, my life in para athletics,
Theme Music
Jill Jaracz: Hello and welcome to another episode of keep the flame alive. The podcast four fans of the Olympics in Paralympics. I am your host. Jill. Jarris joined as always by my lovely co-host Allison brown, Allison. Hello. You’re still alive in this world that we’re living in.
Alison Brown: I’ve decided we are in fact, moving to shook futon. We’re going to have some strict admission requirements. [00:01:00] Citizenship will now require you to be a halfway decent human being boy. And to not be stupid,
Jill Jaracz: there won’t be many visas issued this year. I guess, especially not too Olympian CLE Keller. Oh, I know.
Heard so much about, oh, Hey, did you see that an Olympian, uh, participated in the, uh, storming of the us capital?
Alison Brown: And I was like, yes, I have [00:01:30] seen this story. Please stop sending it to me cuz it is making me very angry and very sad. Yes. And he wore his team USA jacket.
Jill Jaracz: I know which one which. Oh, Hey, how do you identify him by the clearly.
Us Olympic team jacket.
Alison Brown: He’s really tall. See, that’s why my stupidity requirement stands.
Jill Jaracz: well, yeah. So he’s been indicted and, uh, we’ll see what happens with his case. Uh that’s. [00:02:00] I, I don’t, I have no
Alison Brown: words. It’s, it’s very upsetting. I do have something happier. So somebody posted about that Americans will be offered a support, Brit Uhhuh or a support Canadian.
Yes. So I, I would like one of these, these support, Aussies support Kiwis, you know, cuz we could really use them.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah, definitely. Flame alive@podgmail.com apply for the job. [00:02:30]
Alison Brown: Send me some mite.
Jill Jaracz: have you had Vegemite? I have. You like it? No. Oh, what I was trying you like can, or Whitakers or something trying
Alison Brown: to support Kiwi,
Jill Jaracz: get some, get some good chocolate.
Oh yeah. Better than Vegemite. Unless it’s Vegemite infused chocolate, which probably exists by today. I’m sure
Alison Brown: it does arrow bars. Oh my God. Let’s get some arrow bars. Right, right. [00:03:00] Speaking
Ness Murby on competing in para discus as a visually impaired athlete
Jill Jaracz: of Australians, we’ve got a little Australian accent today. Very excited about that. Uh, we are, uh, once again, joined by, uh, Paralympian ness, Mey, who is originally from Australia, but now competes for Canada.
Nest is a visually impaired and he competed at the 2016 Paralympics in the sport of discus. So when we first talked with him, we really wanted to talk with him about how Paradis works. And like one question about visual impairments turned into a full [00:03:30] interview, all on its own. As is want to do with us.
Alison Brown: I had no idea.
So I hope the listeners think so too, because I had no, you think, oh, they just can’t see. Oh no. There’s
Jill Jaracz: way more than that. And rules about everything. Oh man. It was fascinating. So we’re talking about that today. And then, uh, next week we will talk about, uh, Paradis. So take a listen to the processes that nest goes through for the visual impairment, parts of competition.
Uh, [00:04:00] nest. Thank you so much for joining us. You compete as a visually impaired athlete in throes in, in athletics. So tell us what your, uh, class is your para class. Is,
Ness Murby: yeah. All right. That’s a great place to start. So I’m classed as a F 11 or, and T 11 athlete, but as a throws athlete, it’s F for field, so F 11, and that means I’m in the most, uh, severe visual impairment [00:04:30] class.
And what’s really interesting about, uh, uh, visual impairment classes is we’re talking about F elevens having, uh, the least or no functional vision. So functional vision, vision, being the operative word, a few people have. No vision whatsoever. So for example, I don’t just see black, if a glaring flashlight is shown directly into my eye at close range, I’m sure it happens very frequently.
It’s painful and is registered, but it’s not [00:05:00] functional. And so F Eleven’s, um, in this category will have shades that they’re wearing and, and being in this class, interestingly, there’s actually a condition that involves, um, visual hallucinatory, um, input. So seeing things that aren’t there and there’s still no functional vision, but what occurs is distracting and, and possibly, you know, debilitating.
So vision just isn’t simple and F 11 is that class that puts you in the most severe visual impairment.
Jill Jaracz: Do you have to get tested [00:05:30] regularly to make sure you’re still in this.
Ness Murby: I don’t get tested regularly anymore. I now have a confirmed class. However, I did need to go through, uh, a rigorous, um, and, uh, replicated, uh, series of, of tests for several years, especially since I come from a, an expanded sporting background.
So I did this for gold ball. I did this for power lifting, and I’ve done this for power athletics. And now I’m in a confirmed class after having, um, a series with, I guess, a series with set gaps in between of, of testing [00:06:00] field, uh, depth, uh, light perception. Um, what’s being registered within the, the cortical processes of the brain, et cetera, but I guess, you know, to, to put it, uh, basically vision isn’t simple, the green I see is certainly not the green you see, and we could certainly get into a whole range of psychology around that, but, um, just according to medical diagnostics.
Yeah. It’s about going through those, uh, those tests to finally get a confirmed status, if your particular position allows for it to be confirmed and is [00:06:30] not changing.
Alison Brown: How invasive are those tests?
Ness Murby: A really good question. Uh, it also depends which medical system you’re in. I’ll start with that. Um, so I’ve had tests done in, uh, Australia, Japan, and Canada.
It depends on, um, the age of the equipment that’s being used for my myself. I’ve had anything from looking at charts, you know, doing the, the standard, put your head on a chin rest. And we’re going to look into it with, with lights, to also having probes, [00:07:00] uh, strapped to my eyes and, uh, flashing lights, um, Sean, into it.
So , it’s, it’s sort of one of those things that technology is moving in a similar way that, um, that variability is. And so sometimes at the sacrifice of comfort comes greater understanding of what’s actually happening within the, the human body.
Jill Jaracz: So the masks that you wear during competition who provides those,
Ness Murby: so. [00:07:30] Shades are designed to level the playing. For F 11 and, and, and the T 11 parameter, the shades themselves aren’t actually specific. Um, but the criteria for them are, so the O the object of the exercise is to block out all the light. So, like, with other elements of the classification system, the criteria around the shades has changed and developed over time.
And in just my quad four years of, of the, the para athletic cycle going around, I’m in my second quad, [00:08:00] there’ve been several distinct changes to shade. So it used to be that you could wear a sleep mask sunglasses. Anything opaque that would cover over an athlete’s line of vision. But then there were discussions about the floors in having such an open criteria.
So for example, sunglasses letting in peripheral light from the arms sleep masks could be doing the same thing at the cheek phones. Um, so with this, it progressed to specifics in things such as shades. So I started using off, uh, blacked off ski goggles. [00:08:30] And so it’s up to the athlete to provide their own shades, but the shades must meet the criteria.
Now, if you don’t meet that criteria, shades can be provided to you at the discretion of officials. However, it is not a rule. So if you show up to a competition without shade, You can be disqualified. So in my journey, um, moving towards using black off ski goggles, this is even run into some personalized judgment gaps [00:09:00] whereby you know, I’m facing differently shaped faces of officials who are checking them and they can be rejected at the call room.
So here you have that, that idea that we have to bring them, we must wear them. They won’t be provided. And we also then need to meet the officials who are, who are checking them on site. So it was sort of surprising for me to find myself in a sport with so many variables, because I like to have this, this consistency, [00:09:30] uh, preparation and, and, and, uh, a constancy.
So. I’ve had the experience of showing up to a competition with shades that have been accepted at a world level that were then rejected in the middle of a competition at a, uh, a national level in a different country. And changing up my own shades with a second pair that I have, you know, can, can be somewhat, uh, I guess, distracting.
But then when you start imagining changing them up to shades that [00:10:00] you’ve never had before, that was a first experience for me. And it was at a, a grand pre that I wasn’t prepared for. And I didn’t know it could happen. And I actually had an allergic reaction to the replacement Mo that was given me by the official.
So, you know, not to mention that if your shades come off during a competition, whether, um, it’s a, a throw attempt or, or if you’re running and you’re in track, that means that your performance is declared void. So yeah, better understanding the [00:10:30] idea of the shades and the importance of them expands beyond.
The object itself.
Jill Jaracz: Wow. I mean, it’s, it’s like you have to have backup shades and your third line of defense shades and all of that, just so you don’t have to get the,
Ness Murby: yeah, you’re right on key with that. Actually. It’s really interesting that, um, as you, as you unpack the layers of shades, we actually get down to having Gores pads that need to be in place beneath the eye shades [00:11:00] themselves.
And those can be taped into position. And so this is in an attempt to really level the bla the playing field, but there’s also a danger in the compensator balance. So the go had certainly add to my preparation, cuz when you’re thinking about sweat mixed with Gores mixed with tape mixed with, you know, itchy and, and pressing on it’s, it’s really not fun.
However, when everyone is faced with the same challenges, [00:11:30] it enables us to at least be coming from a, a common ground. And I do believe that officials are, are doing their best, especially under comp day pressure and variables. For example, I was in a call room where an athlete didn’t have Goz pads. And so the officials suggested they could just tape the athlete’s eyes shut to be able to permit the athlete to compete instead of disqualifying them.
Because we entered that information of athletes must provide all their own shades and equipment. You can see that everyone’s [00:12:00] trying to work within the criteria and adapting and variables and, and distractions are all part of parasport. And certainly pushing that orthodoxy, you know, it’s, it’s an idea that, um, coming into para athletics, for me, it was surprising to find myself in a sport with these variables and that it requires so much preparation, as well as a lot of cognitive flexibility, adaptability, and really not to mention mental resilience, just to be in a space [00:12:30] to execute my throw.
Jill Jaracz: Wow. I mean, I, I get that the idea of adding gauze to the shade routine I’ll call it. That is, it had to come from somewhere, but are people that worried about athletes cheating the system?
Ness Murby: That’s a good question. I’m not sure whether it’s entirely about cheating or whether it’s also about negating the, the fumbling that that happens in between.
So, [00:13:00] first of all, to answer the first portion, which is I’m familiar with these types of rules from playing go ball, go ball have used Goz pads and, um, uh, and ski goggles as, as shades. So then coming forward though into para athletics, there’s a lot of process between the call room and to executing your throws, whereby if you want to touch your shades or remove your shades at any point during a competition, they need to be rechecked.
And I [00:13:30] think it’s about ensuring that the playing field is, is more on a, a common ground. For people so that if you are needing to remove the eye shades, that officials can feel comfortable, that the playing field is still level when they’re putting your shades back on. And you know, in all honesty, I’m not sure whether it’s, uh, it necessitates to have so many levels, but I can understand where they’re coming from for it.
Alison Brown: It seems like it’s a perfect business opportu. [00:14:00] To come up with these standardized shades for power athletes. And
Ness Murby: that’s a really good point, standardized. And I think what, what that unpacks is the fact that everyone has a different facial structure. So I can’t just throw on someone else’s shades and, and similarly they mine because it doesn’t fit as comfortably.
Now, when I mention gold ball, gold ball uses ski goggles and this idea that they are really big and [00:14:30] they, um, even, uh, impair your, your freedom of movement, but gold ball movement is very different to para athletics. So to focus on para athletics, me wearing something that’s big and chunky can get in the way of me being able to activate a block arm in my throw.
So it’s about trying to cater to the individuality of the athlete. I will say that personally, the Gores pads. Pose a problem to me in the sense of the sweating and the, the [00:15:00] irritation on my skin. And that’s something that requires a whole lot of mindfulness to be able to focus through that. And so that’s something that I, you know, I would want to unpack and, and discuss about options, but, uh, uh, certainly I, I am grateful that they recognize individuality
Alison Brown: and now I’m sitting here fidgeting, cuz now my eyes are bothering me.
Ness Murby: cuz we’re having this conversation. You say, please do not touch them without raising your hand and asking for an official to come over. [00:15:30] Oh my goodness. Oh wow. I am so fidgety right now with my eyes cuz we’re talking about all of this, so yeah. And that’s, you know, that’s when you start thinking, okay, so it, it also, you need to integrate training because this isn’t training with, and, and without the patches and shades, because it’s not just about vision, at least for me, it’s not just about the blocking out the vision I need to learn to, as you say, keep my hands still.
I mean, come on, we’re [00:16:00] living through COVID here. And how many people have discovered how much they really like to touch their face among? Uh, so being on a competition field, uh, as a field athlete competitions last for over 90 minutes, and you’ve also got the call room time before, so it is, uh, about a, a practice.
And, and as you say, it makes you really tune into that part of the body. So it is learning to, to. Around that. And that’s where the, the [00:16:30] parameters everyone’s doing the best they can. It’s, it’s a trade off. Nothing will be perfect, but I certainly have spent a lot of time needing to work out how I manage that portion of the, the distraction, um, because it’s not part of my performance in itself, but it certainly is if I want to perform at a Paralympic level.
Jill Jaracz: Well, I will tell you, nest that I officiate roller Derby. So doing this podcast, I’m always on the lookout for new sports to officiate. I think I have my new thing being the official who checks the shades.
Ness Murby: that’s [00:17:00] fantastic.
Jill Jaracz: put that on my list. The double layer on your, on the shade system. As I, I think I would call it really re requires reliance on your guide.
So tell us a little bit about how it is working with a guide and, and how that all works.
Ness Murby: Yes, certainly having a, a guide is, is a huge part of my performance, my preparation, my life in para [00:17:30] athletics. So I guess to be explicit track T elevens have guides and field F elevens have sports assistants. The main difference to me is that I understand is that the T 11 guide runs the race with the athlete.
Whereas the F 11 sports assistant doesn’t throw the implement with me. It would be quite funny if the two of us, for least the javelin or the disco ,
Jill Jaracz: I’m sorry. Just try not to hit each other.
Ness Murby: Indeed. [00:18:00] It’s it’s, it’d, it’d actually be quite a phenomenal, I think, synchronized throwing, but, uh, in all seriousness as an F 11 VI athlete to be at my para athletics best, I need a sport assistant for every element, uh, competitions training sessions and the things that lay between.
So. I personally work best with a dedicated sports assistant, the same person who shows up knows our routine, understands the complexities and the nuances of, of each [00:18:30] event and, and, and my needs within that. So whether we’re talking at competition from assessing the call room, making sure I’m, I’m seated in the right position, that they’re paying attention to all the visual elements, the depth of the circle, not telling me about, uh, an identified distraction that they know is going to be irrelevant as long as they take care of it, to know even when to call protest, because as an F 11.
I can’t yell, protest on a throw that I think should be [00:19:00] counted, but that’s being red flagged, you know, even at training to identify the technical feedback of my throw, I don’t have the, the same, uh, visual feedback to know what the release was of my discus. Um, did it go to the left or the right, knowing how to, to frame and, and teach me movements, balancing out my lifting angles.
When, when we’re lifting weights, I. I’ve been a power lifter and going from that kind of training to doing weights [00:19:30] training for, for throws, it’s really important in throws training that I am getting a level lift, uh, especially with dumbbells. So having someone who’s watching that and ensuring that my body is, is learning these patterns of movements.
And then of course there’s collecting my implements, which I obviously can’t do, and my guide dog refuses to do. Um, so that’s part of it. And of course, you’ve got the in between there’s there’s travel to training driving. It’s not a good idea. If the guide dog navigates [00:20:00] orientation, foreign environments, like the village safety, even getting to the nitty gritty of ensuring that I’m getting nutrition, you, you need to go to buffets, um, you know, navigating around, uh, hotels.
A sports assistant is certainly not a simple role. And it really requires someone invested in my success and willing to trade off for it because in my situation, [00:20:30] there’s no funding for sports assistance. And yet from my angle, the role necessitates a sports assistant to be, uh, dedicated to that role, to be flexible with their work hours to accommodate, not just training, but also the travel.
So the way I look at it is that in para athletics, this isn’t just my journey. It’s actually our journey. And you know, my, and my dedicated sports assistant are [00:21:00] aiming for the Paralympics. We together are preparing for the Paralympic podium and that’s something that is really unique. For me anyway, in terms of the nuance of para athletics and throws now for me, it, it is a joint journey.
Alison Brown: Are there limitations for the sports assistants in terms of, for instance, if you’re competing for Austral, your sports assistant has to be, [00:21:30] or gender roles or age limits or any of those kinds of things.
Ness Murby: Good question. In terms of, uh, Nationality that is at the discretion of the, the national body, but I’m certainly not, um, an authority on that and being a Canadian athlete in para athletics, my guide is Canadian.
And in terms of. Gender roles and age there’s, there’s no restrictions. The restrictions that we run into [00:22:00] come into play whereby the differentiation between track and field. And this is something that I, that I hope over time will, will grow and stretch within those parameters that we were talking about.
And, and, and boxes of the I IPC journey for track guides, the IPC provides an automatic extra accreditation, and that means that the guide has an accreditation to be able to access the village, access, the sporting grounds, et cetera, [00:22:30] for field athletes, you’re not provided and automatic accreditation for your sports assistant.
So it actually falls to your national body to designate one of their, um, accreditations to your sports assistant. And that’s where I work very closely with athletics, Canada and the Canadian Paralympic committee to ensure that this happens and, and moves through fluid.
Jill Jaracz: Wow. Why is that is just the reasoning because [00:23:00] the, the track guide person is doing the event, even though you can’t do the event without your sports assistant,
Ness Murby: whilst I’m not entirely sure of the, the recorded explanation for the justification, what I have received in, in, in conversation and, and trying to explore this.
Is that there is a, a comprehension gap and there’s, um, there’s a, a, a variable between [00:23:30] athletes. So as I said, I require a designated, um, sports assistant, the competitors in my class. I see them all attending competitions with the same sports assistants as well. I think what happens is that nuance between the T 11 guide running the race and the F 11 sports assistant, not releasing the throw has left rather than a small discrepancy, a rather large comprehension gap of, of what is [00:24:00] required.
And I think that. Arguably, some people assume that anyone can do the job of a sports assistant. And as we’ve unpacked this idea that a sports assistant, isn’t just someone who, uh, provides an elbow for you to follow into the arena. There is so much more to it that goes on. And as a VI visionly impaired athlete for myself, I like to be prepared in the most [00:24:30] competitively ready position that I can be.
And that involves having things, working like clockwork. And to do that, you can’t just swap from one person to another.
Jill Jaracz: Right? And we’ll get into this more in when we’re talking about the throws specifically, but I was watching some videos and noticed that so many athletes have different techniques on their throws and their sports assistants set them up in different ways on the pitch or in the throwing circle.
So you really do need the same person who knows what [00:25:00] you are going to need to set up.
Ness Murby: Precisely if you’ve really, uh, articulated that very well. That’s where I’m coming from. That idea that, um, you know, you, you wind up running into to problems. If you are not with someone who you have created a rapport with that you have a, a working relationship with, because otherwise you spend time having the superficial conversations of outlining just a, a basic need.
Like please put your [00:25:30] elbow out for me, as opposed to someone who knows exactly the way your, your stride length, the way you like to walk into it, where you like to stop, how they’re going to set you up, because they’ve worked with you for all the, let’s say 364 days aside from this one competition day.
And so yeah, having that, that dedicated person really makes a difference.
Jill Jaracz: Are there athletes in your realm who just don’t have their own assistant for whatever reason.
Ness Murby: not to [00:26:00] my knowledge on the, the international platforms that, and, and competitions that I’ve attended, the guides are repeat guides. And if someone is to change a guide, we’ve had a conversation, um, with, for example, an athlete from Brazil, and that changed individual who becomes their new sports assistant also becomes the person they’re training with all the time.
Potentially people who compete on a lower level who are not the elite throwers can’t afford, or [00:26:30] can’t find someone who is as invested to be a dedicated guide, do show up at competitions and, and just request officials to provide that, that service, that, that assistance of getting them from point a to point B, arguably, I would say that that sets them at quite a disadvantage, um, to how they’re performing and training compared to at a competition.
Jill Jaracz: Interesting. Okay. So Allison has not asked this and I’m very surprised this was not the first thing out of your mouth. How far do the, do the [00:27:00] guide dogs get in the stadium? I didn’t wanna ask. Oh, come on. We have to, that’s a
Ness Murby: really good question. No, it’s a great question.
Jill Jaracz: Cause I would talk the whole hour
Ness Murby: about the dog.
that’s all right. When I was in Rio, Lexington got, uh, the most publicity. In fact, he was ranked among the, the, the top 10 personalities, um, that affected the Paralympic games. And I think he was number seven, not me. so yeah, Lexington certainly has a huge [00:27:30] role to. I got interviewed, uh, on behalf of, uh, of Lexington.
I, I was his, um, at attache or go between, um, in terms of how far the, uh, the guide dogs get. There has been a rule and stated that actually guide dogs are not allowed into the, uh, competitive field of play into the arena. So that also poses a little bit, uh, of an extra challenge or, or consideration [00:28:00] of I’m using my, my guide dog all the time.
So then. What do I need to take into consideration? What do I need to set in place so that my sports assistant and I can get onto the field of play and be on there for those two and a half, three hours so often, um, he is, uh, on the, the warm up fields, uh, in the capable hands of a team, Canada representative or in a, a family member’s, um, care.
Uh, but that of course requires a lot [00:28:30] of, uh, organization.
Alison Brown: Yeah. Cause I’m just imagining all the guide dogs coming out on the field. That would just be the best event ever. They would be chasing the discs. They would be they would be running laps on the, the track
Ness Murby: refuses to fetch anything. Um, but I will say the, you know, the note of this that not having Lexington with me on the field of play does bring about a bit of [00:29:00] a, a dampener because he plays a large role as well in my journey.
And when I was a, a power lifter, my first guy dog Verde was always. Up on the podium with me, um, receiving the medal with me. And that’s something that, um, that means a lot, uh, to me. And so the podium is actually considered part of the field of play, uh, in para athletics. So Lexington doesn’t, uh, find his [00:29:30] way up on the podium with myself and, and my sports assistant,
Alison Brown: but he still managed to be a star.
Ness Murby: Oh yeah. He was, uh, the, the star of the, the village. There were, uh, two, two, uh, guide dogs in Rio. And both of them from, from team Canada. can I say, uh, another little segment about my sports assistant? Oh yeah, of course. I wanna say that. Um, so a sports assistant really needs to be someone who is invested in the journey.
[00:30:00] And for me, that person, my sports assistant. That’s my wife and my wife and I have worked together in sport for 10 years, from power lifting to para athletics. And there is a vast difference between the two sports of power lifting and para athletics and the assistance that each calls for power lifting calls for far less.
And I feel the role is interchangeable. However, in para athletics, for me, [00:30:30] it relies on the dynamic with my sports assistant. So the role of a para athletic sports assistant doesn’t call for a family member, but I certainly don’t have anyone else willing to accept the job description, willing, willing to accept the trade offs, willing to accept doing this with potentially very little visibility.
And so this is our journey. This is our success. We are team. Fay Mey. [00:31:00] And no one will convince me differently. I have not done this journey alone. I have done that with my sports assistant. And for me, my sports assistant is my wife and all sports assistant, but especially mine for me really deserves that credit.
I just wanted to have that in because, um, oh, sure. I think it’s really important. A lot of assumption gets made when people find out it’s my wife, some really positive, some, [00:31:30] you know, negative and all the space in between. And there’s something to be said about this. That it’s not a matter. Of course, people go into this, they have parents, they have siblings, they have spouses, but that doesn’t mean it’s a matter of course, and it certainly isn’t easy.
And when you’re asking someone to spend that amount of time with you, I mean, my wife has to make sure that employers are willing to be on the journey too. And yeah, it’s, it’s certainly a, [00:32:00] a, a big give. And when we were living on salt spring, we were able to pursue this because my wife worked for the salt spring brewery and the, the SPCA, and they were willing to be on board with the journey too.
So they allowed her to take, um, extended time off for the competitions and work around the schedule of training. And that’s not something that should be taken for granted. Um, so I do hope that, uh, one day sports assistance will be better accounted for within the IPC [00:32:30] parameters.
Jill Jaracz: And your wife’s name is Eva.
So when you switched from power lifting to athletics, what was Eva’s reaction?
Ness Murby: It wasn’t in a sense, our, uh, reaction, it was more, we were both growing and learning and discovering together. I think. What happened was there were a lot of conversations along the way, because I will say, dare it be naive of us.
We didn’t realize what the differences would be in converting from, from power [00:33:00] lifting to, to para athletics. Eva also has, has done power lifting has ha also throws. And we weren’t so aware of what the, the para realities would be. The para reality of power lifting, not being in the Paralympics also meant that we wanted, you know, we talked about my goal of the Paralympics and Eva was on board for that, but what’s really special is that as it started to unfold [00:33:30] of, of what was really involved and, and what it would take.
Eva accepted and, and adopted and, and wanted the journey too. And that doesn’t come easily when you’re a married couple and you work together, you need to be having explicit conversations. You need to be talking about each person and it certainly needs to be recognized that no one’s taken for, for granted here and that we each get a say, this isn’t well, at least [00:34:00] for me, this isn’t my journey.
This is our journey. And we each have had to step up and really rise to a steep learning curve. And I feel incredibly honored and lucky that my wife has been open to these conversations and this journey. And certainly together we are tougher than we have looked at obstacles and determined that there is a way around them.
We just need to work out how. [00:34:30] And so I think. Certainly as we go along, we have done a lot of, a lot of growing up from our very first competition that actually took place in, in Tokyo, Japan from, you know, training in a, in a back grassy alley to standing on the, um, the, the Paralympic field in Rio to progressing to world championships.
To really, I would say 2019 was our [00:35:00] year. It was not the best distance, but what it was was for me looking back on it and talking with Eva and going, wow, we are here and now it’s just a case of us continuing. And so this journey takes time. It takes consciousness and it takes intentionality. And if you’re
Alison Brown: dealing with javelins and there are spouses involved, you better trust each other.
Ness Murby: Yeah. I mean, uh, I, I appreciate you, you recognize that because you’re [00:35:30] right. It’s funny. And it’s also really serious to the extent that look, it’s no problem for, for us in the sense of if we are both on the, the runway and the javelins going forward, that sense, but also trusting each other, me trusting that and not having had enough sight to ever understand this concept, trusting that Eva can actually see the trajectory and the, the flight of, of the javelin similarly with the disc so that she can stand out in the field and that she will be able to get [00:36:00] out of the way.
Also trusting that in a competition setting, as my sports assistant, that the concern for where the discus is going in terms of anyone else’s parameters, anyone else’s space does not fall on me. I can’t be in my empathic mind and, and, and worrying. So we have been in a situation where. Eva was taking care of dealing with, um, expanding the limiting [00:36:30] beliefs of some officials who came right on in, on the field, cuz they’re like, okay, um, F 11 thrower, right?
Not gonna throw that far potentially. Um, so they’re moving in and, and Eva’s trying to dispute with them. You need to stand further back. Now, there comes a point where there’s only a certain amount that you can do to advocate. And, uh, and Eva was taking care of that. It was their choice of where they stood.
The jail went out and it nearly landed on one of them. But I [00:37:00] didn’t know about this because. My sports assistant takes care of that. And that’s when we talk about this idea of your sports assistant, knowing you, knowing how you throw, where you tend to go, if you’re going out of, uh, out of bounds or inbounds and knowing when to bring into play a distraction, is it relevant?
Is it not
Jill Jaracz: in a way that’s really nice because if you can’t see what’s going on, you don’t have to worry about it necessarily. Exactly. In a way. Yeah. It’s an advantage. A
Ness Murby: lot [00:37:30] of, yeah, I think, um, you know, I like to reframe it in ways that are advantageous and, and have a, a positive spin on it, of the, okay, this is my opportunity to stay focused.
I think what comes up for me. Um, and I, I say this, look, I am an experience of one person in 7.8 billion. Okay. But, uh, in my experience, I have to face a lot of limiting beliefs. And I do think if I wasn’t blind, I [00:38:00] might. Receive a different response from people. So if I was to say, you need to step back. So, because we are dealing with people’s preconceptions, it’s really handy to have a sports assistant advocating on that behalf.
So we’re talking about moving out for the Jalin. We’re also talking about this standard idea of needing to be warmed up when you are between throws, right? And people’s preconceptions officials being very concerned that if the F [00:38:30] elevens are standing up and moving between throws that they might endanger themselves or others or hurt, um, each other run into an accident, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a safety, um, oh, and S nightmare, occupational health and safety nightmare.
And so they, you know, want you to stay. And that’s where you, you get met with preconceptions and it’s sort of the, I can’t stand still and then suddenly go and through for my life and, and get a metal winning [00:39:00] performance. So a, you know, the sports assistant needs to advocate as well as being that intermediary who understands the disability aspect and who also understands all the sporting rules.
And then you have the added issue of where there’s concern from officials that your sports assistant is going to be coaching you as in giving you feedback in between throws. So you’ve also gotta have this, this really fine balance of knowing how to communicate with [00:39:30] your sports assistant in a way that is not going to be seen as coaching in the sense.
I need to be able to swing my arms. Now, if you’re dealing with another culture, another language barrier, et cetera, the technical rule that is that a sports assistant may not coach means you need to speak explicitly to each other. So Eva needs to say things like nest, make your circles lower because the tent is there.[00:40:00]
so that they’re aware that it’s not a nest lower your arm when you’re doing this throw. So you’ll get a better advantage on your distance trajectory. So it’s, it’s about navigating these things and that’s why having also the dedicated sports assistant, someone who works with you all the time, who understands your needs in relation to also being used to.
The perception barriers. Um, yeah, it, it was, uh, certainly interesting with the different limitations. And that’s where you enter things like in [00:40:30] Dubai in 2019 world championships, it was the, please sit still the entire time. Um, so that one gets handled in Rio. There’s the noise factor? Um, I actually couldn’t hear Eva and she was standing directly in front of me about 10 centimeters from my face because we were happening to, um, uh, be competing during a hundred meters sprints.
So all these factors come in.
Jill Jaracz: Wow. Thank you so much. Nest nest and Eva have qualified for Tokyo via the world [00:41:00] champs, but they have to get through team selection and hopefully automatic selection at the Canadian nationals this summer, in order to compete at Tokyo 2020, you can follow their journey@tougherthan.com and on social, uh, nest is on Twitter and Insta at nest Mey, and we will have links to all of that in the show notes.
Alison Brown: And pictures of the dog.
Jill Jaracz: yes. And pictures of Lexington.
Alison Brown: Cause we know who the real star is.
Jill Jaracz: but it was fascinating. Oh my [00:41:30] goodness. Just when you talk about obstacles in somebody’s way of participating in the games, you know, we, we often talk about how much sports cost to compete in, but in visual impairment disciplines, not only do you have your cost, you’ve got to deal with a guide or an assistant.
And that’s just crazy to find somebody who will make that commitment for you.
Alison Brown: Right. So it’s double the cost just [00:42:00] because you’ve got two competitors. Mm-hmm it’s like fair skating and the relationship.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. That was just, it was fascinating. Thank youness. And we’re looking forward to having you back on the show next week, too.
Get to our portion about Diskus.
Alison Brown: what we were going to talk about. originally.
Team Keep the Flame Alive News
Jill Jaracz: All right, let’s go to better places. Let’s take a trip to see what’s going on with our team. Keep the flame alive.
Alison Brown: [00:42:30] Welcome to shook Feist
Jill Jaracz: on. All right. Our shook, Stan are our past guests who are team. Keep the flame alive. First off, we’d like to send our condolences to Marni. McBean Kathleen hel with whom she won gold in 1992 and 1996 died of cancer this week at age 55, and head also won gold with the woman’s eight in 1992.
That’s really sad. I
Alison Brown: can’t, I, yeah, I can’t even imagine. And, and Marni is. Was such an amazing woman to speak to. And I can’t [00:43:00] imagine that relationship cuz they competed together for such a long time.
Alison Brown: and that’s that’s rough. And then just, you know, when you hear someone dying of cancer in this environment of illness,
Jill Jaracz: mm-hmm
Alison Brown: that, you know, it was not an easy situation.
Jill Jaracz: Right? Right. So our condolence system Marni into, uh, Kathleen’s family and France
Alison Brown: para skater, Nate Bartholome is competing at us nationals with new partner. Katie McBeth. The short program is at 6:00 PM on N B C SN. And the [00:43:30] free is at 9:00 PM on Saturday, also on N B CSN. Why can’t I say that? It’s too many letters.
Yeah. Maybe.
Jill Jaracz: And that’s of MSNBC. Yes. So that’s all in the us. Hey, glad to see Nate competing again.
Alison Brown: I’m impressed. I did. I did see some of the program. They’ve posted pieces of it.
Jill Jaracz: Oh. And.
Alison Brown: And it’s nice. They’re a nice pair.
Jill Jaracz: Oh, good, good
Alison Brown: looking good especi. Especially for being together, such a short time.
Jill Jaracz: Our skating [00:44:00] analyst at checky Wong was very happy to see that Nate got rid of his man bun.
Alison Brown: I never saw the man bun. Did I?
Jill Jaracz: So it’s probably a good thing.
Alison Brown: Oh yeah. No, a man bun is never a good thing.
Jill Jaracz: our book club author. Andrew Marin’s book games of deception was one of eight non-fiction titles selected for the young adult library services associations quick picks for reluctant readers [00:44:30] list for 2021.
And this list identifies titles aimed at encouraging reading among teens who dislike to read for any reason. And you.
Alison Brown: We loved that book. So we loved
Jill Jaracz: that book. And that was one thing that Claire said about the book was that this is something you could give to kids who don’t like to read and get them in because it was a way to teach them some history that we really need to remember in a way through sport, which they’d be excited about.
So,
Alison Brown: right. So it’s easy to read, to [00:45:00] get kids excited about basketball and then you you’re in.
Jill Jaracz: Exactly. So if you still haven’t read games of deception, I would recommend picking up a copy. It’s quick read. It’s a good read kids to
Alison Brown: read it too. Nick Cunningham is coaching the us Bob sled team and is on tour with them in Europe.
So excited that he can’t
Jill Jaracz: stay
Alison Brown: away,
Jill Jaracz: but he loves it too. He was so excited to be involved. He’s like I miss competing, but coaching is, is really where that’s where my calling is. So that’s really exciting to see [00:45:30] also in the world of Bob sled, the us team is back on the world cup circuit and joined the circuit in Winberg.
Our bobsledder Lauren Gibbs was paired with Britney rein bolt and they placed 18th out of 18 in the competition. But it’s a start. I think all of the us sleds struggled, I would say, because this is their first race of the season and everyone else has had at least two, but maybe three or four races under their belt so far.
So it’ll be, uh, tough [00:46:00] for them. Josh Williamson is not competing in, uh, he didn’t compete in this race and he doesn’t seem to be in Europe right now with the team said on Instagram that he is in park city right now. So he’s training away. Well, keep an eye on what he is doing
Alison Brown: at the first weekend of B Athlon racing in Oberhof Claire Egan finished 13th in the sprint, 38th in the pursuit and ninth in the mixed relay.
And after this weekend she was [00:46:30] ranked 19th and the world cup standings. Oh. When she came and I think, I think refe was doing well. He was doing, he was doing
Jill Jaracz: pretty well. He wasn’t doing so well in the pursuit, but did really well in the sprint and the mix relay. She got that team to like second place during her leg.
She really killed it in that. So she’s doing really well fairly nice. And then finally, malcom India has released a coffee table book on Sheva, Kevan called fire [00:47:00] and ice. I know we’re trying to figure out how to get one.
Alison Brown: When I hear fire and ice, I immediately think of game of Thrones because that’s the actual title is a song of ice and fire.
So now I imagine chief of Kevan fighting a dragon, which he could totally do.
Jill Jaracz: Yes, he could. And he is kind of fighting a dragon, getting a winter sports program going, you know, I think about
Alison Brown: it,
Jill Jaracz: but that’s very cool. We will, uh, try to [00:47:30] figure out how it’s possible to get a copy of this. Hopefully we can. Oh,
Alison Brown: cause it’s only in released in India.
Jill Jaracz: Uh, yeah. Well, all we, all they had linked to was a YouTube video of the book launch. So they didn’t really have any more information about the book that I could figure out
Atlanta 1996 Olympics History Moment: Tennis, Men’s singles
time for our Atlanta 1996 moment. We are talk, looking back at Atlanta, 1996 all year long, and this [00:48:00] week. Oh, my gosh, I have a story that you would love. If you loved Avanav Bindra, you are really going to love Leander Paaz. And I’m ready. Yes. So he, uh, get to the cut to the chase. He won the bronze and the men’s singles tennis competition at, uh, Atlanta 1996.
And I listened to a podcast called the tennis podcast and they’ve got a whole episode called, um, Atlanta, 1996 relived. [00:48:30] And they’ve, they’ve keep reliving other Olympics as well. And they went back and they got interviews with some of the players in the competition. So Lindsay Davenport won gold. They talked with her, they, they talked with, uh, one of the doubles winners.
So the longest interview in this was with, and you would go crazy over this. He starts off by saying, well, when I was a kid, I used to Polish my dad’s Olympic medal. Like every week he would Polish his dad’s Olympic [00:49:00] medal because his father won silver. I believe in field hockey. He’s Indian. So field hockey in Munich, 1972 later, it comes out that he was conceived during the few days stoppage in play at Munich 1972.
So he is an Olympic baby through and through.
Alison Brown: Wow.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. That’s one way [00:49:30] to
Alison Brown: occupy those days. That’s what they said.
Jill Jaracz: so what I loved about leaner was that he wanted to be an Olympian so much, and he, when he was a little kid, he loved soccer. You wouldn’t see him without a soccer ball anywhere. And he figured out kind of quickly that India was not going to send a team to the Olympics and soccer.
So he better find an individual sport and he found tennis. and learned, and then worked his way on the tour. [00:50:00] He, uh, got into the Olympics in Barcelona and missed out on a medal for the, those games. And so he said for the next Olympic quad, he was going to take the year before the games. And he went down to south America and trained at altitude.
And why he did that was because he did some research and said, oh, the Atlanta competition is going to be at stone mountain. And that is [00:50:30] 710 feet above sea level. So my bet is that if people aren’t used to the altitude, they’re going to, uh, basically crash out
Alison Brown: and yeah, none of the major tournaments, no for tennis are at altitude.
No. Wow. So he was really focusing on the Olympics.
Jill Jaracz: Oh yeah. Versus
Alison Brown: other people in the tour.
Jill Jaracz: Right, right, right. It was genius. And this Atlanta was also the first time. Uh, well, okay. So [00:51:00] 1988 was the first time that tennis got back into the Olympics and for 88 and 92, they had gold, silver, and two bronzes, but for 90, right?
Like they do with a lot of
Alison Brown: those kind of tournaments.
Jill Jaracz: Yes. But for 96 it went to gold, silver, bronze. So he really had to. Work harder to get that bronze medal. So the interview talks about, uh, a lot about how he did that. And oh, you know, he like pulled some ligaments in his wrist and he’s just [00:51:30] like taped me up and put me back out there, I’m winning this medal.
And he did. And you know, that is just one of those crazy moments because the country went nuts too. He’s like, I wanted to do this for India. Give them some hope in something he’s like, you go back and a million people are at the airport and probably literally a million people are hanging around because there’s so many people in the country.
So his story is just one of those. I, I want a movie, I want a book. I want everything about this, cuz he is [00:52:00] amazing.
Alison Brown: And I do not know this story, so this will be fine. No. So we’ll put the link to that episode of the tennis podcast. In the show notes and I will go back and listen to it. And he was conceived at Munich.
Oh my God.
Jill Jaracz: Well, it gets better. There’s one last little detail. Oh no. He is the first Indian and only tennis player to compete at seven Olympic games. What [00:52:30] he has competed from 92 to 2016 in tennis. And he’s trying to get to Tokyo what I know. And some of his competitions are probably doubles. I don’t know exactly where he’s, but still.
Yeah. And they, and they talk about in the podcast, they talk about how he’s the only one to get that many Olympics in a sport that isn’t like sitting or standing basically. [00:53:00]
Alison Brown: Cause right. Like, you’ll see those equestrians many, many. Right. Right.
Jill Jaracz: And you have to be in shape to be an equestrian. That’s no joke, but you know, you’re sitting down shooting Kim rowdy.
She’s standing. Yeah. You have to have a lot of strength and a lot of endurance to hold that rifle up for as long as you do, but you’re not running around to tennis court for hours.
Alison Brown: And also in those sports, they tend to get better. Like the people who win tend to be 30 in [00:53:30] equestrian mm-hmm right, right.
They’re not 20, whereas in tennis, they’re very young. I mean, by 30 you’re retired. Yeah.
Jill Jaracz: Cuz you’re looking at, I mean, Lindsay Davenport comparatively was like just out of high school for the most part. She was really young in Atlanta in 96. Yeah.
Alison Brown: Wow.
Jill Jaracz: I know what there’s still
Alison Brown: hope for us.
Jill Jaracz: That’s right.
Maybe I should pick up tennis you never know.
Tokyo 2020 News
All right. Let us [00:54:00] move on to Tokyo. 2020
torch has got put in quarantine. That’s right. Oh my goodness. The associated press said that they have put the torches that were on display back in storage, which is sad, cuz they were there to give people hope, but there’s a new search, but they just gave
Alison Brown: them COVID right. Yeah. There’s a huge search in Tokyo.
There’s all kinds of concerns cuz we’re less [00:54:30] than 200 days out. So I think they’re putting some of the more extreme measures in, in Tokyo
Jill Jaracz: mm-hmm cause they
Alison Brown: know this is coming. They want to get this under control.
Jill Jaracz: Right. And all week I’ve been inundated with news that like 80% of Japanese people do not want.
The games to happen anymore, but Tokyo 2020 president Yohi Moi said that a specter spectator decision is coming likely end February, which I think is a little [00:55:00] ambitious. Yeah. A little ambitious, but probably March. So that’s according to inside the games. So not much new, but just kind of rehashing because you know, you get a few extra cases and not like a few extra cases.
They’re when you compare it to the us, it’s not so bad, but it’s still a lot of cases and they don’t want it to spread any further, but that just rehashes the, the same fears over and over. So yeah, you gotta play the waiting game and that’s tough thing. I
Alison Brown: mean, maybe the [00:55:30] torches could have worn a mask.
Jill Jaracz: Maybe no, let’s move over to Beijing.
The Olympic village that is for the ice sports is due to be finished by June. So in inside the games also reported this it’s going to have 2300 beds for athletes and officials. And I, [00:56:00] I didn’t know that Olympic villages had themes, but this one does, it has a theme of health and intelligence
Alison Brown: did they just come up with that? Now?
Jill Jaracz: I have no idea, but like, what is, what are your other villages themes going to be like ambition and speed flowers and cookies. [00:56:30] that would be our village.
Theme Music: It’s
Jill Jaracz: true. The village in chuckle stone can have cookies
Alison Brown: and flowers. Absolutely Oreos. There you go. Official Oreos
Okay. So I did wanna mention something about Beijing 20, 22, that I noticed this week, they were very ate because their mascots have bubbles on their heads. Oh, they’re they have like the that’s right? What? For lack of a better word, like these scuba [00:57:00] helmets, it’s like they knew Hmm. Gotta protect the mascots.
That’s right.
Jill Jaracz: They’re healthy and smart mascots that you will see in the village,
Alison Brown: but do they have cookies for me?
Jill Jaracz: Prob they probably will. Fortune cookies. I think that’s true. American
Anyway, the village is due to become public housing. After the end of the games,
Paris 2024 News
we got a little bit of Paris, 20, 24 [00:57:30] news.
Alison Brown: Adalgo the mayor of Paris has approved a 250 million Euro plan to renovate the Shazi in the city center. I love mayor algo. She is not taken anything with these Olympics. I know. So, so this is gonna be two, the Euro on budget.
Jill Jaracz: Oh, I’m sure. I’m sure. But one thing that [00:58:00] really stuck out in my mind is we’ve talked about this before.
How plans to rejuvenate cities sometimes don’t happen until the games come because they want, they want the place to look nice.
Alison Brown: Right? I mean, LA is doing a huge public transportation project in relation to 2020. I know Barcelona rebuilt a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff, London developed a whole new section that used to be [00:58:30] industrial mm-hmm so sometimes so yeah.
Gets a little bump from, oh, the world’s coming.
Jill Jaracz: Right? So there had been a committee in Paris campaigning for a major redesign of the avenue for a few years. And now it’s happening. Why? Because you wanted to look nice for 20, 24. Interesting.
Alison Brown: Right. I hope they don’t do what we used to do when I was a kid and people would come over and you’d try and get the house all clean.
But then at the last minute there’d be this stuff that just didn’t have a place and we would [00:59:00] panic it into the bathtub and just close the shower curtain. So there would be toys and stuff in the bathtub. So Paris don’t do that.
Jill Jaracz: that? That’s our urban planning advice for you.
Alison Brown: Don’t panic it into the bathtub.
Jill Jaracz: There you go. All right. I think we will call it a week with that. Uh, let us know what you thought of this. Week’s show. Email
Alison Brown: us@flamealivepodgmail.com [00:59:30] or call our voicemail hotline at two zero eight. Flame it where flame alive pod on Twitter and Insta and keep the flame alive pod group on Facebook.
Jill Jaracz: Next week, we’ll be back with the second part of our interview with ne Mey talking about how visually impaired discus.
So as we go out to music by Archdale thank you for listening. And until next time, keep the flame alive[01:00:00]
Alison Brown: Oh, yeah, no, a man bun is never a good thing. .