In April, LA 2028 announced that it would be the first Olympics to have more quota spots for women than men. That’s a win for women’s sports, right? Not so fast. Our gender in sports expert Dr. Michele K. Donnelly returns to peel back the layers of LA 28’s press release and tell us how fair these gender numbers really are.
Dr. Donnelly is an associate professor in Sport Management at Brock University in Ontario, Canada. Learn more about her work here.
In Milano-Cortina 2026 news, the Armani-designed Italian kit has been unveiled. We have some milky white thoughts about it.
In LA 2028 news, Honda has signed a big sponsorship deal, the Paralympic venue plan and sport program have been announced, and we have a new event in para athletics!
Also, USA Track & Field has announced the qualifying times for the 2028 US Olympic Marathon Trials. Can you make the field? The fine print is here
Speaking of Paralympics, we have a doping announcement that reconfigures a Paris 2024 podium.
Also, we check in with Team Keep the Flame Alive for the latest in their lives. This week we hear from:
- Curler John Shuster
- Para swimmer Olivia Chambers
- Swimmer Bobby Finke
- Race walker Evan Dunfee
- Para cyclist Samantha Bosco
- Author Vicki Valosik (get the paperback–and support the show–through our affiliate link at Bookshop.org)
- Gymnast Brody Malone
Thanks so much for listening, and until next time, keep the flame alive!
Photo courtesy of Dr. Michele K. Donnelly
TRANSCRIPT
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394-Dr Michele K Donnelly on Gender Equity at the LA28 Olympics
Jill Jaracz: Hello and welcome to another episode of Keep the Flame Alive, the podcast for fans of the Olympics and Paralympics. If you love the Games, we are the show for you. I am your host, Jill Jaracz, joined as always by my lovely co-host, Alison Brown.
Alison. Hello, how are you?
Alison Brown: Hello. I think I need Renz Galock. Our sleep expert to come back on and, and give me some lessons.
Jill Jaracz: Oh,
Alison Brown: I am waking up at all the wrong times. My circadian rhythms are just not what they’re supposed to be. So Dr. Locke helped me.
Jill Jaracz: Oh no. Oh, well that was a good episode to go back and listen to if you haven’t heard how she studied how elite athletes.
Had their circadian rhythms and when they traveled around the world for competitions, things that they did to get their bodies on a different clock more quickly than would be normal for a body.
Alison Brown: can’t have jet lag if you’re arriving the day before a competition.
Jill Jaracz: No, you can’t. You can’t. So,
Alison Brown: I don’t have any problems with jet lag. ’cause I’m not going anywhere. I just can’t sleep on the eastern time zone, apparently. Mm-hmm.
400th Show Celebration
Jill Jaracz: Well, I hope you will be awake for our four 400th show, which is coming up. I I will be so there. Excellent, excellent. We will be recording episode 400 with you. Dear listeners, we’re going to have a little party in the Keep, the Flame alive. Podcast, recording studio, keep the flame Alive.
Alive, right? So we are going to record on Monday evening, July 14th, eight to 10:00 PM. Eastern time, that will be a kind of a party atmosphere. We will be able to have multiple people coming in and going out, and hopefully that means that you can join us as well and, uh, have a little conversation.
Talk about what you’re looking forward to for Milan Cortina, or even if you’re just already ready for LA 2028. We wanna hear from you and be able to talk with multiple people at once. we’ll have a link to our studio in the show notes that you can go to on July 14th, eight to 10.
We’ll also put that information in our Facebook group, so get excited and come and party with us. I, you know, I don’t know if this is a party or something to celebrate. Oh, well, you know, perhaps something to celebrate.
Interview with Dr. Michele K. Donnelly
Jill Jaracz: Remember back in April when LA 2028 announced that it would be the first Olympics to have, more quota spots for women than men.
Alison Brown: And we were confused.
Right? And we didn’t know if we should celebrate or not. So, uh, we brought back our gender and sports expert, Dr. Michelle k Donnelly, to uh, talk to us about what that really means in terms of gender parity and equity and, well, we didn’t get to equality ’cause that’s just a ways down the road really.
But she came on and peeled back the layers of LA 2020 eight’s press release to tell us how fair their gender numbers really are. Dr. Donnelly is an associate professor in sport management at Brock University in Ontario, Canada, and you will remember that she talked with us about ahead of Paris 2024 to drill down to see what their celebration of gender parity really meant.
Now we’re gonna look at LA 2028 to see how much more improved maybe the gender situation is for those games. Take a listen.
Jill Jaracz: Dr. Michele Donnelly, thank you so much for coming back on the show.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Thank you for the invitation. It’s always.
Jill Jaracz: LA 2028 is touting more women than men for the first time. You have read the fine print, not equality or not a good idea. As as, uh, it might sound you’ve got thoughts, talk to us.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: I do have thoughts.
Gender equity: What about the men?
yeah, I haven’t quite recovered from. The talk about equality at Paris and now, now we’re taking that next step to say better than equality. One of the main things that I’m going into this with and feeling so much discomfort about is, claims about gender equality or gender equity, or gender parity, whatever it might be that are exclusively focused on women.
And I think it is a surprise to me to, to be the person at times saying, but what about the men athletes? It’s what about, but when we’re talking gender, right? Gender isn’t just code for girls and women. It’s about men and women, and. Ideally about folks who do not identify as men or women and identify as more, you know, with more gender diverse categories.
But, uh, certainly Olympic wise we’re, we’re not there at all. And in fact, seeing some really concerning, uh, retrenchment and exclusions in that area. But, the. Claims that actions are being taken, decisions are being made in the interests of gender equality that actually are harmful to one group of athletes relative to another group of athletes.
that’s not gender equality. And I think if there was more, clarity or transparency around like, is this a, Not an affirmative action moment, but like, do we want to swing to having more women than men in order to address some of those historical kinds of, uh, exclusions? That’s a decision that can be made, but it, it.
There are, consequences of that decision. And I think especially right now with the really tight kind of control of 10,500 athletes and really limiting, the quota for the additional sports for the games, it really feels like a zero sum game. If you are giving to one, it is taking away from.
The other. So I think that is definitely something that we have to be, aware of. And then just the numbers themselves, right? they’re interesting. they saw something just recently saying, you know, Nordic combined is the only remaining Olympic event that doesn’t include women. Um, and it’s not true.
’cause Greco-Roman wrestling does not include women. And, That would be the discipline or the event, right? Equivalent to something like Nordic combined, under a larger sport. Uh, so there are yeah. Odd differences. you know, the two additional apparatus for men in artistic gymnastics are being balanced out by having two rhythmic gymnastics events for women where there aren’t equivalents for men.
I do have to investigate further, but I was surprised to see, the artistic swimming events are being counted as exclusively women’s events. And I believe at Paris that men were eligible for at least the team event. Uh, not the duet necessarily, but the team event. So, That’s no longer an exclusively women’s event if eligibility is open to men athletes as well.
But that’s where it’s being counted. So, yeah, I mean there’s, there’s still those elements of semi creative counting that are happening. And then decisions that can look relatively altruistic, but actually have a, a very clear kind of case for why they’re being made. So the, the flip in, having 16 women’s teams in the football or soccer tournament and 12 men’s teams, we have to.
Remember that FIFA is the governing body, kind of putting forward their proposals for the Olympic Games. They haven’t gotten themselves together to offer a Women’s Club World Cup in the way that they offer Men’s Club World Cup. there’s still that restriction on the men’s teams at the Olympic Games to be.
Predominantly under 23 teams, whereas on the women’s side, you’re seeing the national teams. So they’re really using that Olympic competition as an additional World cup style competition. where the men’s competition is not that, it’s, more of a junior world kind of, kind of situation. So, that.
Economically, right? Like there’s a business case I think there for that. And it’s not an altruistic, let’s have more women’s teams at the Olympic Games than, than men’s
Alison Brown: Makes me think how they’re counting equestrian numbers, where do you put those? Because it you can have an all male team, an all female team, or any combination thereof.
So yeah. Are we, playing fast and loose with numbers here?
How the IOC counts men’s and women’s events
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah. So for the longest time, uh, in their reporting until about 20, 22, in their women in sport kind of updates, the IOC counted open events as, uh, they counted them only on the women’s side and not on the men’s side. beginning with, like I said around 21, 22, and certainly with the push to more mixed gender events, they now count them as an additional category.
So here are the number of women’s events and then the mixed gender and open events. but yeah, for the longest time they were only showing up in the women’s numbers. So the, the number of women’s events was over reported based on those, Open events. and yeah, equestrian remains the only, I guess you could say artistic swimming.
Now with the, the ability to include men on the team, that would be an open, The distinction I’m making there is that open is anybody can participate. Mixed gender is, there is a, a requirement for a certain number of men, athletes and a certain number of women athletes in an event. Uh, so we’ve seen that number go up for Los Angeles.
They’re reporting 25 mixed gender events. And then there’s just, there’s concerning stuff in that area as well. So race walking has lost an event entirely. Uh, so where we saw going into Paris, right, rather than adding a 50 K race walk for women, which I. As you know from your close relationship now with Canada’s own Evan Dunfee, right?
Women compete in a 50 K race walk at the world championships there. It’s not that there aren’t women in the world doing that event, and rather than adding that for Paris, they took away that 50 K race walk and invented a mixed gender event, and it won’t even get more than one. Chance, it’s just, it’s not part of the program for Los Angeles.
And instead we see a mixed gender, four by 100 meter relay, which I’m sure will be fun to watch and exciting, but we know that sprints already get far right, a disproportionate amount of attention out of the, the track events. And, and that is, somewhere where we did see kind of briefly, I’m not sure that the kind of, Question has continued, but those sprint athletes, because of heats, quarters, semis, finals. Race a lot. And then if you add a mixed gender relay, because as I’ve spoken to you about before, right, those mixed gender events are not adding athletes. They’re pulling athletes who have already qualified for their single gender events.
so that’s additional races for those athletes. And that can be a lot. And like you were saying, I mean, your experience in Paris, it’s hot. It’s. Like there’s a lot going on and you are extending the competition for particular athletes in those events. the relays are kind of different ’cause you don’t have to have your set for right up front, right through the qualifying, but it still is additional races for athletes.
and this sense, right? We’ve added mixed gender events. It’s a medal event that is in the interest of the international federations to have another medal event in their sport. but it’s not adding any athletes. It’s not actually contributing to having more athletes at the games.
Alison Brown: You’re not giving more opportunities.
You’re just giving more medals.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah, more opportunities to compete once you are already there, rather than more opportunities for athletes to qualify to compete at the games.
The significance of more men’s events at LA 2028
Jill Jaracz: if you worked through the numbers, there are still four more men’s events and women’s events on the program. We’ve talked about more mixed gender events, but we still have more men’s than women’s. What does that signify?
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah, it’s one of the, I think, more bizarre kinds of decisions that is being made to say we’re going to, equalize, if not.
Have more women athletes, right? To say that the athlete quotas, you know, all of that excitement in Paris for the first time. Gender parity in those athlete quotas. it feels like such an easy number. It feels like such an easy thing to just say. And in the number of events, it would make some of those hashtag gender equal Olympics, right?
Things more compelling if it wasn’t limited to this very specific, piece of it. And it’s something that the IOC controls. So as much as they like to, deflect, defer, right. To say, well, we don’t control the sports, it’s the international federations. We can’t, you know, tell them what to do In that regard, they’re the ones approving the program and Right.
So it, it would be very easy for them to approve a program to say. Equal number of events, for men and women. and it is, it’s hard to come out on the more men’s events side when you still have two events and say, we’re counting artistic swimming there saying that’s a women only event. Rhythmic gymnastics, women only event.
You only have Greco-Roman wrestling on the men’s side. That is. An event that, so how we end up still with more men’s events than women’s events is, tricky. I think, and again, I would reiterate right, like the way that this has been done is really. A problem that needs to be addressed. So we’re looking at the Los Angeles program.
It’s saying boxing. We’re gonna have an equal number of weight categories for men and women. so it’s seven and seven for, uh. Los Angeles. If we look at London 2012, when women first compete in boxing, there were 13 events, 10 weight categories for men, three weight categories for women.
Those seven weight categories for women have been achieved. Consistently taking away from men until Los Angeles where it looks like there’s been one additional weight category for women to bring it up to the even right to have seven and seven, but that’s not. There’s not a fairness there. There’s not a quality there to say.
Now, there will be fewer opportunities for men in order to add those opportunities for women, and I think. Probably my biggest concern there is when the international federations release their press releases and the IOC releases its press release and says, these decisions are being made in the interest of gender equality.
It makes gender equality something that looks like it’s contentious and. Against one group in the interests of another group. And that’s just not what gender equality should be. There should be no way to, oppose decisions that are made in the interest of gender equality because it shouldn’t be. We’re gonna take from you to give to the others.
Should the IOC get rid of the overall athlete quota?
Jill Jaracz: So really is the problem with the construct of the athlete quota of 10,500 should the IOC just let that go, even though it’s in the charter? Let that go and let the chips fall where they may. And I get that a quota is helpful because you have to provide resources for, you know, you have to have a village for so many.
But if you have a city that needs housing. An athlete’s village becomes housing at the end of the day, or, well, I guess in the case of LA they’re, they’re using existing college dorms, but if you’re doing something that is adding housing to a city and National Olympic committees basically have to pay for those athletes anyway, why not just make it a, bigger celebration?
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah. And so we’re looking at, if you look at through Tokyo, you’re over 11,000 athletes at each of the games. Certainly from the time when I start looking like London through your 11,000, two, 300 Right. Athletes in that range, what the IOC has done, again, without clarity around it or. Saying this, all of those recommendations that were a part of Agenda 2020, the strategic roadmap for the Olympic Games, we were told that’s like a jigsaw puzzle and no one recommendation has priority over other recommendations.
that’s not borne out in their actions, right? That’s not evidenced in their actions that. Structure for the Olympic Games, has been prioritized over almost all of the recommendations, right? To say 10,500 cap on the summer games, and there’s an event cap on there as well, or sort of a, a recommended event cap.
So if you enforce that. At the same time that you’re saying you need to increase the number of, uh, opportunities for women athletes and events for women, then the international federations are working within. You can’t add any athlete quota spaces. You can’t add any events unless you’re taking away something else.
And so. The international federations have made their decisions within that framework of, if you wanna add something, you have to be kind of showing what you’re willing to give up. and so it is unsurprising, I keep thinking like the anticipated and unanticipated consequences, but I think it’s, it’s too generous to say that’s an unanticipated consequence.
It’s kind of obvious if you say. Within this new kind of, more strict framework of numbers first. Then also this expectation that you’re hearing that you have more opportunities for women. You’re bringing right, the, uh, opportunities for women in terms of number of athletes and number of events closer to those opportunities for men.
There’s only one, there’s only one way to achieve that. and
I would say, and I mean it certainly would hold the IOC responsible for that, that these recommendations have been made without any sense of what does that look like in action and how should international federations be achieving that. I think, there’s a, an important and kind of historical so we can see how it’s played out kind of parallel in terms of Title IX in the us right?
so you have this legislation that comes in that says, you can’t discriminate based on sex in any educational program that receives federal funding. Doesn’t say anything about sport in spite of the fact that that’s almost exclusively how we think about Title ix, because that’s where it had some of its biggest, effects, right?
We saw just dramatically increased numbers of women athletes and teams for women, uh, in school sport, colleges and universities. But there there are very clear guidelines about. How you can and cannot demonstrate compliance with Title ix, and one of those is very clearly you cannot take away from men to add for women or simply remove from men to equalize your numbers.
That doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t continue to happen that universities will report. Right. We’re getting rid of men’s swim, swimming, tennis, right? Those kind of more minor sports. and still in those press releases you’ll read something about compliance with Title IX and it’s like, but.
The actual compliance documents say you can’t do that. That’s not, you can do that, but it will not, that doesn’t bring you into compliance with Title ix. That’s not a way of achieving, that goal. so. Even right when you have that framework, when you have kind of those very clear, here are the, the things that you need to be doing and or not doing in order to achieve this outcome.
you see it. And then in this case of the IOC kind of sending this message to the international sport federations, there was no guidance. So, Like I said, I don’t, it isn’t surprising that this is where we ended up, I think.
How does LA 2028’s athlete quota affect funding for women’s sports?
Alison Brown: Does this program do anything for improving the funding of women’s sports in the Olympics?
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: So at their national levels, like going through to the Olympics? There’s a very, I think still, which comes first. Funding for, women’s sport or your place at the Olympic Games? I mean, one of the really interesting things about seeing, the program that’s been approved for Los Angeles and the messaging around it is the very straightforward, kind of easy and missed decision, for.
The next winter Olympic games to not have Nordic combined for women. it is at the Winter Olympic Games, the one remaining, event where women do not compete. women now have a world championships for Nordic combined. There’s a World Cup for Nordic combined, so there are women competing.
why make that decision? It’s my understanding. The FIS right, like the ski federation brought it forward, proposed it, um, and it was declined. Making sense of that in this kind of summer context of, uh, a games that is already more equal numerically, is confusing. and relates to your question about funding because what more can the International Ski Federation do besides having a world championships, a World Cup circuit, right.
For Women’s Nordic combined, which then presumably in some ways incentivizes national. Olympic committees, national sport federations to invest in, women’s participation in Nordic combined. And then they still don’t have that, that opportunity of the Olympic Games. And there are a huge number of events, under all of the international sport federations, right.
That aren’t Olympic events, but that one is and has been since the beginning of the. The Winter Olympics. So it would be, it would be such an achievement, something to celebrate, right? To finally have women competing in every event at the Winter Olympic Games. And it hasn’t happened. And it’s not, venue, it’s not right, like.
Those things are in place because that event exists. those things are in place because that event is actually made up of two other events that, that women compete in. Right. So, and you’re not looking at adding, even a hundred athletes. You’re looking at adding 20, right? Like 12. I mean, you know, we’ve seen.
The numbers be very small, uh, when women’s events are initially added. So it’s not right. It’s not a make or break. It certainly doesn’t feel like that. And the winter Olympic games have typically been under the, cap that is set for them. So, yeah, like I said, it’s hard to reconcile. I. The decisions and the celebration that’s being made around the summer Olympic games.
With that decision, particularly about the winter Olympic games,
How will a new IOC president affect progress in terms of gender equity?
Jill Jaracz: what do you see a new president perhaps doing in this realm of gender equity, equality, parity?
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: It’s a very good question,
Jill Jaracz: and even athlete quota. I mean, it’s very interesting too. Now we have a, a female president who is also an athlete, but we, We’re coming off of two athlete presidents.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah. I am interested to see how much emphasis there is moving forward given the, what I would characterize as kind of overly celebratory, claims about Paris and looking ahead to Los Angeles. There certainly has been a demonstration through these events and those decisions being made, that there is an interest only in numbers, only in parity.
There hasn’t been actually too much conversation about equality, in. In terms of conditions of participation, for athletes. and we’re seeing, uh, a little bit of that shift to now thinking, which I think is important. It has to be part of the conversation. Women participants, uh, as coaches, as technical officials, right as officials in sports.
but I think, it. Behooves, the IOC to go back to its own gender equality review project, uh, its own recommendations to, continue, if not initiate, that conversation with international sport federations about if there are differences in the ways that men and women are participating in your sport, why are they justified?
Are they necessary? Should they continue? so I think that does need to be part of the conversation. I think we will certainly see, I wonder if a, a first ever young woman president of the IOC will. Want to be as associated with a discussion about gender equality as her two men predecessors were able to be. where we know that men, get far more accolades for, taking on something like gender equality as a, as a project.
Where a woman, it might be less, well it might be, I think it would be less celebrated, uh, for her to take to kind of continue, the conversation. and I think, we are in an increasingly complex, moment of round. The perpetuation of ideas about protecting the women’s category, which I think is, a really important piece of understanding how we’re not at gender equality yet, right? That, that the same arguments that are being used to forward those incredibly exclusionary positions, uh, about who belongs in women’s sport.
Are the same foundational assumptions that, mean that in some events women continue to race over shorter distances, use lighter equipment, right? Smaller venues. they’re the same basic kinds of understandings of, of women athletes as less than and in need of protection and, and accommodations.
Hopes for LA 2028
Jill Jaracz: What are your hopes on what LA has decided in terms of Gender and making it more fair?
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah. I hope that
it is the experience that we want it to be for all athletes. I hope that, It provides an opportunity to discuss those remaining things. Like, okay, if we’ve, if we’ve gotten here with the quota, let’s look at the number of events if we’ve gotten here, right? Like those kinds of things. I think, we’ll be important. I think it is a useful opportunity for.
A country like the United States that I would say is both viewed globally, but also views itself as really a leader in terms of, women’s involvement in sport, promoting girls and women playing sport for, uh, some self-reflection, about what’s happening. We still have really concerning participation numbers.
decreasing for everyone, physical activity and sport participation. but when, we’ve never had, uh, equivalent participation for girls and women as boys and men, then those decreasing numbers are decreasing from that lower level. Uh, we haven’t done. Much to address that really concerning kind of adolescent dropout period for girls particularly.
so you know, I hope that Los Angeles kind of, and these claims about gender equality, right? And what this games is relative to previous games, uh, that it potentially provides that platform for those conversations. And hopefully not in the really kind of simplistic and unsupported ways that we’ve seen, right.
That like how hosting an Olympic games will inspire participation, which there’s just no evidence to, to support. but hopefully in legacy planning and decision making, kind of figuring out how to. Realize the potential of, participation after games.
Transgender women and sex testing in sports
Alison Brown: So we get this question a lot when we get interviewed is what do you think of transgender athletes participating in women’s sports? And I’m curious as to how you would answer that question.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah, I mean I, do presentations quite regularly related to gender inclusion in sport, and I have, I have my five non-negotiables that I typically present at the beginning.
Uh, the first one is trans women are women. the second one is, we’re all learning. We can make mistakes, but. They’re really only mistakes when we show that we learn from them, and do things differently. I can never remember the third one. The fourth one is, there is a crisis of participation in sport and physical activity.
This is not it, this, it’s, the absolutely minuscule number of trans athletes. S trying to participate in sport is, not a crisis. and then number five is trans women are women. So, I think, there are eligibility requirements for all athletes. the IOC actually incredibly had what now seems like progressive.
Policy in 2000, right? Like saying for trans women to participate in sport, here are the requirements, right? Like, here’s what you have to do. I don’t know what has happened. The, downloading of responsibility for this decision making to international federations, just seems to have really facilitated, This incredibly regressive exclusionary, approach. I think roller derby is a fantastic example of, where these kind of slippery slope arguments. Like if you have trans women competing in sport, then you’ll never have cis women winning medals ever again. And I think. That’s not actually happening anywhere.
Jill Jaracz: Like That’s right. Because you have competed with trans women. Yeah. Somewhere along the way with roller derby. Yeah. So the argument that trans women are taking over women’s sports isn’t valid because there’s a way to compete against a cis woman and there’s a way to compete against a trans woman.
Yeah. You just have to find the competitive edge.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah. Right. And I mean, I’ve been hit harder and I’m far more scared of cis women in my roller derby career than any trans woman that I have played with. and I think also, like there’s the really. Positive thing about being in a space where the position is inclusion is I shouldn’t know if I’ve played with trans women or not played with trans women unless that person has chosen to tell me what’s so incredibly harmful about this current moment of.
Moving forward with these exclusionary policies is that all girls and women are now at risk. If you are too good, if you don’t look the way people think you’re supposed to look. It’s not just questioning a competitive advantage, it’s literally questioning your identity. and that is. Something that will keep girls and women from participating in sport.
Cis girls and women from participating in sport, not only trans girls and women from participating in sport. the fact that we are full circle back at sport organizations in the us literally suggesting that they would do physical inspections of girls. To determine whether or not they belong in the girls’ category.
The fact that world Athletics is bringing back a cheek swab and chromosome testing that was so thoroughly debunked, it was removed from the sex testing process. yes. So all of that to say, my response is. If athletes are meeting the eligibility requirements, there is a place for trans women in women’s sport. to pretend otherwise is hugely damaging for all girls and women.
and, uh, colleague of mine, Risa Iser wrote, uh, a short piece a number of years ago now about the risk associated with stereotype threat, right? That if you keep telling girls and women, you are not good enough to participate against boys and men, which is a horrifyingly offensive kind of characterization, right, of trans girls and women’s participation in sport, but you are not good enough, you’ll never win.
You can’t do this. That’s more harmful than being in competition where you might lose and have to get better. yeah, the, just the continued suggestion that there would be no possibility that there’s no future for cis women in sport is just, There just doesn’t seem to be any actual evidentiary grounds for it.
and we seem to be very much in the realm of anecdote, pseudoscience, selective science, certainly, as justification for excluding trans women and then now even, right, like we’re seeing world athletics go. Way, way down that road and say, women with differences of sexual development, which again, is one of those things where there’s just that hugely dramatic distinction from men’s sport to women’s sport.
You know, we talk about a Michael Phelps and we say, basically if you built a swimmer in a laboratory, you would build Michael Phelps long torso, huge wingspan. Right? Doesn’t. Suffer from lactic acid production the way that, his competitors do. And that is celebrated only. Right? It’s celebrated. That is incredible.
Nobody is saying that gives him a, an unfair competitive advantage over his right, over the other people in the race, even though. It objectively does, and on the women’s side, we’re saying we’re going to have an even more narrow definition of what makes you eligible for the women’s category, and that is terrible.
On so many levels.
Jill Jaracz: Well, and the fact that it’s focused on the women’s category is frustrating because trans men also compete in sport and elite sport. But I’m guessing that many of the disadvantages that they face, like we’ve talked with urby, smaller hands, bigger discus, That’s a, a I guess I would say unfair, but it’s a, makes them not as competitive.
So, I dunno. But you also, I’m going with, but it’s frustrating. Yeah.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah. Trans men, and even cismen who, can get a therapeutic use exemption for testosterone. The literal, naturally produced substance that women are being excluded from the women’s category for, because their bodies make on average higher levels of it, right?
And, and it ignores things like androgen insensitivity, right? Like all of these various complexities of human bodies that just cannot be. Distill down to one or two characteristics that you can say if this, then you fit. And if not, this is not a category for you. And then, I mean, again, like the really offensive kind of identity, challenging pieces around, but if you don’t meet these criteria, you can still compete in the men’s category.
It doesn’t matter if you know yourself as a woman, you’ve lived your entire life as a woman, everybody in your life like
there are, yeah, I think all of those assumptions right about.
Those very paternalistic and at times condescending assumptions about protecting the women’s category, right? Or, to protect the women’s category from women who are born as women, or women who go through incredible processes too, right? live as women. Is, like I said, I think the piece, the really take home piece is just how harmful it is for all girls and women and that it makes sport participation riskier, much, um, more dangerous proposition.
if I, I could play sport and someone could actually question whether or not I’m girl enough to be in this sport, or I could be in the band. Or I could, you know, be in the debate club. I could, there are other places where I could be, where that isn’t a risk.
Alison Brown: I mean, I can say I wouldn’t let my daughter play sport. If I knew there was a chance of a physical exam, I’d say four. Get it?
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yep. Or if you’re even having to have a conversation about like, mom, I wanna get my hair cut short. Like, ugh. Of course you should be able to do that. But you know, I’m, I’m worried about our next soccer game and what a parent on the other team might say.
If you are our top scorer or our star goalkeeper, right? All of a sudden there’s that much more attention and we’re in a moment where people are emboldened to say that. You would hope that would never be said, at least publicly, but it is. That’s where we are right now.
Will new sport quotas hinder their Olympic exposure?
Jill Jaracz: Frustrating. Yes. This is a random question and. Not really with gender, but if we look at LA 2028 and you have this new batch, huge batch of new sports. But one of the things I noticed is that in the initial quotas, if we’re gonna talk about quota numbers, I.
Squash had, I don’t know, maybe 64 and they got cut down to 32 or something in the, like by the time all is said and done, squash gave up a lot and they’ve been trying to get in the games for a long time. And who knows if that will be big enough participation for them to even stay in the games. Do you have thoughts on that?
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: I do, uh,
Jill Jaracz: excellent.
Alison Brown: Um, that’s why we love you, Michelle.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Squash is a great example. I mean, squash has to have spent millions of dollars over the last two or three decades, right? Trying to, be added to the Olympic program, um, to be added right now in this very precarious. Way of not having any guarantees moving beyond Los Angeles.
and squash, I think, has done its work. It is a global sport, right? Like it meets that universality kind of criteria for the games. so. Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens with it, but yeah, it’s that tiny number. You also have, cricket and lacrosse, right? Team sports coming in, in a reduced form.
baseball and softball seem to be an exception here because they have a history on the program and now they’re coming back. And the US it absolutely makes sense, right? It made sense in Tokyo for, uh, baseball and softball to be there. but yeah, you have these kind of smaller version lacrosse and Cricket. so it’s a moment where we seem to see international sport federations kind of responding to this quota cap and looking at team sport events for how they can have lower athlete. Requirements on each team. So the fact that it’s rugby sevens right in the Olympics and not fifteens, you know, we’re gonna see this smaller version of, lacrosse baseball is even piloting and has going a, a smaller version of baseball, right?
Which, presumably is a little bit with an eye on the games to thinking like, how do we get back in there? Permanently, like, the fact that basketball has maintained, right, the full tournament and the three x three. But, I think that’s a model for a number of sports. Kind of looking at, oh, this is a way in.
so. You have that. Interesting. Again, the IOC saying we don’t control the sports. That’s the, like that’s the international sport Federations are, have autonomy and making decisions about their own sports. But we’re certainly seeing, expectations about the Olympic program, having larger influences.
Uh, it seems like on the development of. Sports right now, than we would’ve seen in the past. I think, that kind of size wise, certainly for the team sports. And then also, how do we develop events that we can sell as what it, I was just reading world rowings, press release and about the. Coastal rowing, beach sprints that are dynamic, fast-paced and spectator friendly.
So right, that push for like, I can watch someone row who like a you really long, don’t worry. Go watch and run on the beach. Right. And jump in the water and do that piece. And so I think, for something like squash, the more they can figure out how to. Really televise their sport in a way that is compelling, that may be one of the best ways to make their case for continued inclusion at the games.
Jill Jaracz: It’ll be interesting.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yes.
And it’s interesting, like looking at a winter sport example, you have the decision to, rather than add a women’s four bobsled, right, to go with the mono bob, like we get another thing. But look, it’s smaller. We’re not asking for that many places. We’re not asking for too much.
Jill Jaracz: Right, right. And sometimes the arguments are, you know, because mono bob is just one, why don’t they have a men’s and a women’s mama, mono bob with the argument of smaller countries that can’t afford bigger sleds?
Can excel in Mono Bob. ’cause we’ve got an, we’ve talked with an Australian who is right up at the top of the rankings. So that’s really exciting to see the global participation in bobsled. But why not have that on the men’s side too, instead of let Germany win it all, all the time.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Yeah. And it is, that’s where.
You hear these arguments that get made that suggest we have higher expectations of women’s sport than we have of men’s sport, right? Like the mono bob is all of these things. And then because it isn’t translated onto the men’s side, the suggestion is women’s sport does have to be more inclusive in those ways.
It does have to be more accessible and it’s like. This all sounds good. This sounds good for any sport. Like why wouldn’t that be your universal? yeah. Instead of saying, we’ll keep the fours on the men’s side, women can’t have fours. You can have them on a bob.
Alison Brown: Nevermind the higher expectation on female athletes than male athletes as human beings. We won’t even let, let’s, we’ll be here for another three hours if we have that conversation. Yeah,
Jill Jaracz: but it’s that then the monologue,
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: kind of like morality, role modeling, all of those pieces that get put on individual women athletes that also seem to be right of the.
The sports themselves, the events, whether it’s the WNBA as a league right, has to show up in a different way than the NBA, but also, you know, these kinds of claims about, you know, we, we need this event to be more, uh, accessible to more different kinds of, people in place, different places. And.
Socioeconomic status, right? Like all of those kinds of things. It’s like, why isn’t that just our baseline expectation of, of sport, why all of those, when it comes in, right. It is part of that kind of justifying, making a different decision about women’s sport in a way that then makes you think, yeah, there’s different.
There’s different values here, which is weird.
Jill Jaracz: That’s a good word to end it on. Yeah.
Weird. Oh, Dr. Dr. Michelle Donnelly, thank you so much for joining us again. As always, it’s a great conversation with you. We’d love having you on.
Dr. Michele K. Donnelly: Thank you so much. I, yes, I love having these conversations with you. You ask such great questions. Thanks.
Jill Jaracz: Thank you so much, Michelle. You can find out more about Dr. Donnelly’s research@brocku.ca. We will have a link to that in the show notes.
World Boxing announces sex testing
oh, world boxing.
Alison Brown: You know, we thought things were getting better when. IEA or or international boxing kind of went away.
Guess what? World boxing is problematic too.
Jill Jaracz: Uh, yeah. So we talked about boxing with Dr. Donnelly and Recently, this past week, world Boxing has announced a new policy called Sex, age, and Weight, which includes mandatory genetic sex testing for all athletes. This will be a, polymerases chain reaction, or PCR.
That is a test that is done by nasal or mouth swab, saliva, or blood testing. The results of that revealed the presence of the Y chromosome, which determines biological sex. So in its announcement of this policy world boxing, specifically called out Paris 2024 gold medalist, Imani Khali of Algeria, saying that she may not compete in a world boxing event until she undergoes sex testing.
That includes the Eindhoven World Cup that starts. On June 5th, right around the corner. caused a little bit of a stir.
Alison Brown: A little bit of a stir. You know, we, I remember we talked about chromosome testing from like the 1970s and how it was totally debunked as a legitimate test for biological sex.
Here we are going back to why chromosome testing.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. And so the tests are problematic. Also problematic was that they called her out specifically. They have now issued an apology saying that the organization should have protected her privacy.
Alison Brown: At one point, I remember having a discussion with, I think it was Jason Bryant about, you know, offline? About that. Wrestling was starting to do weigh-ins with athletes out of competition, so you wouldn’t have athletes competing so far off from what their everyday weight was.
Interesting. So that extreme cutting wouldn’t be a thing anymore that you had to compete closer to. What is your actual weight? I’m hoping that’s what the weight thing means. ’cause that’s actually a healthier situation for athletes. I doubt it is. ’cause this is world boxing,
Jill Jaracz: right? So this whole policy is still under revision by World Boxing’s Medical Committee.
So we will hopefully. Understand more as it comes down, but that’s something to put on the list. I would love to talk across all weight sports, because that’s an issue I think in every weight sport, is figuring out what weight you should be at. Because we talked with Louise Ton. Where she made the decision to go to switch a weight class.
And that was so did
Alison Brown: Bobby Body.
Jill Jaracz: Yes. And that was really tough to do and ultimately did not work out very well for Louise ’cause everybody went to that weight class. and also we talked with Lauren Gibbs, how she said, my body wants to be at this weight. Was not happy being underweight, but had to be underweight for the sled.
Which I, I get, but, I’m, I’m curious as to what’s going on in the weight sports and how they’re dealing with these situations that can lead to really bad conditions mentally and physically later on,
Alison Brown: and does a y chromosome way less than an X chromosome.
That’s probably what they mean by the weight, not blown.
Milano-Cortina 2026 News
Jill Jaracz: That’s right. Uh, Armani has unveiled its uniforms for Team Italia ahead of Milan Cortina 2026. They’re going for a monochrome look that is milky white. Italia is on, It’s sewn on there in prominent 3D embroidered lettering. The kit includes a whole bunch of jackets and trousers, uh, using tech, uh, protect them.
Seven technical fabric. they’ve got a bomber jacket with an allover Italia Print, tracksuits t-shirts, polos, jumpers, trousers, hat and gloves. Suitcase mountain shoes with anti-slip grip, running shoes, all all of this stuff. So the picture that they showed was people, athletes, mostly in the white outfit with some in like a navy blue.
Really, really dark navy, down colors it. Some of the jackets have collars that have the Italian flag on the inside, so when they flip down, you see the Italian flag. That is very cool.
Alison Brown: But not that sweater that you liked so much. That was for the, torch unveiling.
Jill Jaracz: Oh, yeah, that’s right. That hoodie that you saw.
I’m still hopeful. Maybe it’s in the stuff we didn’t see ’cause they wanted the white look. Maybe, maybe, one of the hats, the winter hats says Italia across it. There’s another winter hat that I really liked. This also white had some kind of emblem in the center with a red stripe on one side and a green stripe on the other.
I thought that looked pretty slick.
Alison Brown: A lot of milky white.
Jill Jaracz: Yes. And that Milky White Giorgio Marni said was to quote, evoke harmony with the snow covered peaks among sports values. Respect is perhaps the most important, and I have distilled it into a vision of simplicity, clarity, and purity.
Alison Brown: What do you think?
It’s milky white. It’s a lot of milky white. It’s a sea of milky white.
Jill Jaracz: I’m curious if The Italia elements are subtle, or if they will be very prominent, like they were in Beijing.
Alison Brown: So in Beijing they had that hologram quality mm-hmm. On the embroidered Italia. And you could not see that in photographs.
You really could only see it in person. So, and I’m sure that was pretty expensive to produce. So maybe if it’s, you can’t see it in photographs, kind of what’s the point? ’cause the uniform is mostly gonna be photographed.
Theme Music: Right.
Alison Brown: But we couldn’t see it in the photos if it’s in this uniform. So it’s, it’s a little hard to tell.
But the, the picture of the team was great. I was like, there ais, there’s Stefan, there’s, I was just looking at all my favorites. So I did not complain of my milky White sea of Italian athletes There.
Jill Jaracz: if you are in Australia, you will be able to watch the Paralympics on Nine Network. They have secured the exclusive Australian rights for Milan Cortina, both the Olympics and the Paralympics.
They will have coverage on Channel nine nine Gem and its broadcast video on demand platform nine now, as well as on Stan Sport. Their subscription video on demand platform and other digital platforms. So very cool. If you are in Australia, why did we not think of STA sport?
Alison Brown: Yeah. Oh well, yeah. We got a lot of the copyright we lost.
Yeah.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. That’s okay. We got, we do have a lot on our plate. Anyway,
LA 2028 News
Jill Jaracz: More news from LA 2028. they got a car sponsor.
Alison Brown: Were you surprised by this one? I was stunned.
Jill Jaracz: I I was pretty surprised. Why? What made you surprised about this?
Alison Brown: So, Honda will be a founding sponsor and the official automotive sponsor. It’s not an American company.
N
Alison Brown: no it’s not. You know, Toyota last year announced it would no longer be a top sponsor, so it’s stepped away.
So you need a new automotive sponsor. And I understand Honda has a long history with la That’s where they had their first Honda America, uh, company was founded in la but. Wow. I really was surprised that it was not an American company that either didn’t step up, didn’t make the deal. You know, we don’t know the backend workings, but Honda took the slot so we’re, we’re gonna get Hondas everywhere.
Jill Jaracz: That’s right. So they’re sponsor for both LA 2028 and Team USA. ’cause it seems like a lot of these sponsorships are going hand in hand. For 2028. So
Alison Brown: right. Honda is not replacing Toyota as a top sponsor, so it’s not making the deal with the IOC. It’s making the deal with team USA and LA 28.
Jill Jaracz: That’s right. So the door is still open for a top sponsor in the automatic automotive category well that will be interesting because LA kind of did the deal.
Without the, I don’t know if they had the IOC in
like, where is the IOC in all of this? but they needed a car sponsor. They got along. Those
Alison Brown: IOC members aren’t gonna walk,
Jill Jaracz: right. Or, or take the newly expanded metro.
Speaking of taking the metro, we’ve got a venue plan and sport program announced for the Paralympics. Nice little compact area.
Alison Brown: Yeah. It’s only gonna be in la uh, long Beach, Carson, and Arcadia. So that’s not a heck of a lot of territory.
Jill Jaracz: No, it’s about 35 mile radius, meaning all athletes are gonna be able to stay in the same village on the UCLA campus, which is gonna be awesome
in terms of events, there’s going to be a total of 552 medal events across 22 sports with 4 4400 athlete quota places.
This is the same number that they’ve had for the last two Paralympics. So, uh, not much growth, it seems like in terms of having more athletes there, even though we have a new sport. There’s gonna be some new events too. 243 medal events for female athletes. That’s eight more than Paris. Number of events for male athletes has been reduced by eight to 263.
So again, like Dr. Donnelley talked about, were taking from the men. Giving from the women. The number of open or mixed gender events has increased by three to 46. So mixed gender events are fun,
Alison Brown: you know, I love them.
Jill Jaracz: Yes. So, but they don’t add to the overall, if you’re looking at it from a gender equality lens or a gender equity lens,
they’re increasing the number of quota spots for female para athletes, so there will be 107 more quota spots for females at LA than at Paris. There’s going to be 27 more, uh, for men than Paris had 205 gender free slots, which is a reduction of 134 places, for the second Paralympics in a row.
And team sports. We’ll all have eight teams this time, this time around, which is, the same in Paris. One new event I noticed, uh, that the IPC posted on Facebook, there’s going to be a frame running added to the para athletic program.
Alison Brown: Yes, I saw that. So. I could, I was trying to explain, like, how do you explain this?
It’s, it’s got three wheels and the runner stands up, but they’re fully supported.
Jill Jaracz: Right? So it’s kind of like they’re pushing a tricycle that has no seat.
Alison Brown: Yes.
Jill Jaracz: So you would stand in, in, in center instead of there being a seat, that’s where you stand and you push it. Athletes in this class have a severe coordination impairment like hypertonia, ataxia and athetosis, there’s gonna be a men’s and women’s a hundred meter race in this event.
So it’ll be cool to see something else added to, uh, the paralympic schedule and I bet will re hopefully boost participation in that. But like if, hey, if you know somebody who could be a frame runner, they got three years. Get them in that right? We all know that some of these classes don’t have very many people in them.
Make some competition happen.
The LA Times has reported that the LA County is doing a feasibility study to test the possibility of water taxis between San Pedro and Long Beach. There are no events in San Pedro, but there’s probably hotels around there. It’s kind of like you cut across a, a little, port type area. San Pedro does have Croatia house coming to it.
We already have CRO Hospitality news. I mean, more hospitality houses have been announced for LA than it seems like are opening for Milan Cortina.
Alison Brown: Well, because they can pick places. They don’t have things that are six hours apart. They’re like, get us a water taxi. Oh, we got those. You want an air taxi? Oh yeah.
Jill Jaracz: You are taxi.
Alison Brown: I got a helipad in my house for you.
Jill Jaracz: Plan now. US Olympic swimming trials are coming back to Indianapolis of 2028.
Alison Brown: Clearly I have to go this time. It was because you had so much fun last time.
Jill Jaracz: It was so good. So much fun. And what an exciting venue to be in. ’cause obviously they’re gonna have it at uh, Lucas Oil Stadium again, and it will prepare people for what’s gonna happen at the stadium in Inglewood. Is that what they call it?
Yes. Okay. Okay. It will really prep people for the Olympics because I know SoFi will have a hu, a bigger audience, but this is pretty big and it’s, they did a great job. People were so excited and lots of people came. So it’s a good, good place to have, uh, trials. Also, if you are thinking that maybe you could qualify for 2028 US Olympic marathon trials,
Alison Brown: I have never thought that once in my entire life that I could qualify for a marathon trial.
Have you
Jill Jaracz: ever thought about like you could finish a marathon?
Alison Brown: No.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah, I just, it running that far is not in these lakes.
Alison Brown: No, I can do many things. I can absolutely not run any distance whatsoever. Can you run a hundred feet? I can walk it at a blazing pace. I walk faster than I run walk. You should really take a race walking.
I, I would be fantastic at race walking, but I cannot run.
Jill Jaracz: but if you do run and you run marathons and you think, oh, I wonder what it takes to qualify for trials. ’cause a lot of places are, you know, qualifying for trials is very cool. The qualifying time standards have been released, so men will need to be able to run two hours, 16 minutes flat.
That is two minutes faster than Paris qualifying time. The women’s time is 2 37 flat and that’s the same as Paris. You can start qualifying. September 1st until 60 days before trials if you would prefer to qualify via a half marathon, those times are 1 0 3 for men and one 12 for women. Half marathon times are accepted starting January 1st, 2027.
So you got some time to work on your marathon and if that’s not working out, but you have a pretty good half marathon. In a couple years you can, you can try that too. We don’t even have a date for trials,
Alison Brown: but we got a time.
Jill Jaracz: That’s right. Uh, the last three Olympic trials were in February. So we will have a link to the finer print of what this all entails in the show notes.
And if you do decide to pursue this route, please let us know. I’d love to know that there are some marathoners are among us.
Doping News
Alison Brown: Yeah. You don’t have to break my heart on this one because I broke it myself. Oh, really? I hurt my own. Well, I hurt my own feelings when I opened this email. I should have just left it for you because Paris 2024 Paralympic gold medalist in the men’s 5,000 meter T 13 Race. Yes.
Waad Ella Tobi from Spain has received a three-year ban for an out of competition test that he was found positive for CLOs Ball, which is an anabolic androgenic steroid. The ban, apparently there was a big delay in getting these results. ’cause this test was from, 2024. They blamed it on a third party that it wasn’t, Uh, Ella Tabby’s fault or Spain’s fault. It was just, I think the third party lab kind of put it in the back row and forgot to do it. but all his results dating back to the start of the Paralympics have been wiped out, which means he loses his gold medal. So neutral Paralympic athletes, Alexander Costin and Antonin take a step up to gold and silver and then bronze will go to Ecuador’s Sixto, Roman Moretto Creole.
Ugh. Frustrating. Yeah, I mean, we’re seeing a lot more, and I mean, this is what happens ’cause it, it’s kind of like, oh yeah, the Paralympics have become way more competitive and now we’re seeing a lot more positive results. Which on the one hand, I hate to say it’s a positive thing, but it’s also showing how the Paralympics are viewed as kind of equal in, in people’s minds.
That the glory of that paralympic gold medal is so great now that they’re willing to cheat for it. True. Which is a horrible way to look at this, but I’m trying to stop hurting my own feelings with every doping story.
TKFLASTAN News
Alison Brown: Welcome to Stan. It
Jill Jaracz: is the time of the show where we check in with our team, keep the flame alive. these are our past guests and listeners who make up the citizenship of our very own country, Shuk Stan, first up.
Alison Brown: Team John Schuster will compete in the men’s competition at the USA Curling’s Olympic Trials in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. November 11th through 16th
Jill Jaracz: Paris swimmer. Olivia Chambers was named to her second World championship team. She will be competing at the Toyota World Paris Swimming Championships in Singapore in September.
Alison Brown: Swimmer Bobby Fink won the men’s 1500 meter freestyle at the US National Championships.
Jill Jaracz: Race Walker. Evan Dunphy finished fifth in the 10 kilometer race walk at the Madrid. Marsha, he was not thrilled with that. He had a bad race. He was not
Alison Brown: happy. He’s getting a little tired of the fourth and fifth I think.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. Yeah. So hang in there Evan. You will break through.
Alison Brown: Paras cyclist Samantha Bosco. Took home a gold in the road race and a silver in the individual time. Trial at the 2025 UCI Para Cycling Road World Cup in Belgium.
Jill Jaracz: Author Vicki Velo six’s book, swimming pretty. The untold story of women and water will be out in paperback on June 10th.
Alison Brown: Gymnast Brody Malone got married on May 31st. Congratulations to he and his new wife, Serena.
Jill Jaracz: Excellent. We always love a good marriage in.
Alison Brown: He wore his cowboy hat as he had promised his friends.
Jill Jaracz: Good for you, Brody.
Get in Touch!
Jill Jaracz: Alright, that will do it for this episode. Let us know what you think of the plans for LA 2028
Alison Brown: and you can chat with us and other listeners on our Facebook group. Keep The Flame Alive Podcast. Email us at Flame Alive pod@gmail.com. The voicemail and text line is always open at 2 0 8. 3 5 2 6 3 4 8.
That’s 2 0 8. Flame it and you can get even more Olympics and Paralympics from our weekly newsletter. Sign up for that@flamealivepod.com. We’ll have a link to that in the show notes.
Jill Jaracz: Next week. It’s time for our next installment of stories from the Sydney 2000 Olympics and Paralympics. So tune in for that because I’m sure it’s gonna be jaw dropping as always, what we somehow didn’t remember from those games, but, uh, those are always good stories.
Tune in for that. Thank you so much for listening, and until next time, keep the flame alive.