Book Club Claire is BACK for our discussion of Foxcatcher: The True Story of My Brother’s Murder, John du Pont’s Madness, and the quest for Olympic Gold by Mark Schultz with David Thomas. Bonus! The dulcet tones of Jason Bryant also joins us to give some context to the story and what was going on in the wrestling community at the time.
Our next book will be: Sevens Heaven: The Beautiful Chaos of Fiji’s Olympic Dream by Ben Ryan. Buy it through our Bookshop storefront, and we’ll earn money to keep producing the show.
What are our TKFLASTANIs up to this week? We’ve got news from:
- Archivist Teri Hedgpeth
- Author Harry Blutstein – get his new book Games of Discontent: Protests, Boycotts, and Politics at the 1968 Mexico Olympics
- Video journalist Sean Colahan
Throughout 2021 we’re revisiting great stories from Atlanta 1996! For our Atlanta 1996 moment this week, Jill talks about the monumental Atlanta torch relay, as this week is the anniversary of when the Olympic flame landed in Los Angeles to kick off its U.S. journey. We also reference our episode on Athens 1896, which you may want to check out.
The Tokyo 2020 Organizing Committee has started to release v2 of its Playbooks for participants in this summer’s Olympics, so we go over the new measures added to them (think lots of COVID-19 testing, stick to the plan, go through more COVID-19 testing.
Plus, more news from Tokyo, and the International Olympic Committee’s announcement of its first-ever e-sports event.
Thanks so much for listening, and until next time, keep the flame alive!
Photos courtesy of Book Club Claire and Jason Bryant.
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TRANSCRIPT
Note: This is an uncorrected machine-generated transcript and may contain errors. Please check its accuracy against the audio. Do not quote from the transcript; use the audio as the record of note.
186-Book Club Claire and Jason Bryant on Foxcatcher
Book Club Claire: [00:00:00] All I wanna talk about is that John DuPont is a crazy person. I want to default, I wanna talk about this with you all
Theme Music
Jill Jaracz: hello. Fans of shook PLA Liston, and welcome to another episode of keep the flame alive. The podcast, four fans of the Olympics in Paralympics. I am your host. Jill. Jarris joined as always by my lovely co-host Allison brown, Allison.
Hello, how are you today?
Alison Brown: We have been busy, busy, busy.
Jill Jaracz: We have been busy, busy, lots and lots of interviews.
Alison Brown: Lots of good stuff coming up.
Jill Jaracz: So excited. We learned, we’ve learned a lot of things too. [00:01:00] Uh, I mean, like you think, you know, a sport and, and you don’t know anything about the sport.
Alison Brown: Well, I never think I know anything so I just assume that I’m going to be learning a lot, but what I have learned a great deal in a lot of our interviews is, and I knew this before, but I really have a hard time with left and right.
and I always blamed it on the fact that I’m lefthanded. So I was always doing things back backwards from everybody else. Anyway,
Jill Jaracz: mm-hmm
Alison Brown: I think now it’s just cause I’m stupid.
Jill Jaracz: Oh, don’t say that book
Jason Bryant: club
Book Club discussion on Foxcatcher
Jill Jaracz: it’s time for another book club, episode and book club. Claire is back for our discussion of Fox catcher by Mark Schultz. And because it’s a book about wrestling, the D tones of Jason Bryant, join in to give some context to the sport in times of this event, take a listen.
Book Club Claire: We are talking about Fox catcher in our book club for this quarter, I guess you would say [00:02:00] it was written by Mark Schultz with David Thomas.
And not only do we have Jill and Allison here to give their feedback, but we also have the DCE tones of Jason Bryant and I am quite excited cuz this is the first time I’ve gotten to meet you in person. Well, meet you face to face online. So it’s wonderful to have you here. Jason
Jason Bryant: it’s it’s pandemic face to face.
So there you go. Book club.
Book Club Claire: All right. So Jason, you have read this book before, am I correct in saying that?
Jason Bryant: Yes,
Book Club Claire: I figured
Jason Bryant: it would so really, really right when it came out. So it, it has been a couple years. So, uh, there, there may need to be a little bit of a refresher here, but yeah, read the book, saw the movie, uh, seen the documentaries.
No Nancy. Used to talk to mark pretty regularly, not so much in the last decade or so, but, uh, yeah, I’m familiar with, with the situation and the book and what’s true. And what’s dramatized, I guess.
Book Club Claire: Oh, now that really has me curious. What do you mean by dramatized
Jason Bryant: from the movie? Not the [00:03:00] book. Oh, okay. So there’s, there’s obviously, as you may have read there’s differences between the, uh, the adaptation that Bennett Miller did and, and Mark’s biography for lack of a better term.
Book Club Claire: Okay.
Jason Bryant: Well
Book Club Claire: we’ll,
Jason Bryant: we’ll
Alison Brown: hold that for movie club.
Book Club Claire: Yes,
Jason Bryant: right?
Book Club Claire: Yeah. I wanted movie
Jason Bryant: club.
Book Club Claire: So, uh, Jill and Allison, this was my first time reading it. I think it might be yours as well. I wanna get your thoughts, uh, overall on the book as a whole.
Alison Brown: No, you don’t.
Book Club Claire: Allison. I hear that you got through this really fast as did I.
It took me
Alison Brown: like I, two days I did get it through it very, very quickly though. Occasionally and I will be completely honest and very literal. I threw the book a couple times. And not because of John DuPont. Yeah. I found Mar I, I found Mark Schultz to be an incredibly difficult person to sympathize with.
And obviously losing your brother [00:04:00] is horrific and no one deserves that. And I don’t feel bad for him for a lot of the other things that happened in his life.
Book Club Claire: Jill,
Jill Jaracz: this book took me forever to get through. I was excited for a quick read, but this was like reading David Clay LA’s book on Munich 1970. It was so hard to read except for the parts about Dave schul.
When he actually talked about his brother, that was interesting. And I was excited and I that’s what tugged at my heartstrings more because Dave seemed like such a great guy. And to have this happen was just robbed the world of a good person. On the other hand, I wanted to hook Mark Schultz up with Shirley Baba Bishoff because they seemed like two peas in the pod.
Very bitter about a lot of life.
Book Club Claire: Yeah. I, I didn’t get as much, uh, bitterness as YouTube both did I kind of, I was [00:05:00] reading this while I was like, away from everything and disconnected from the world. So I just kind of sped right through it and. Couldn’t understand, you know, the, the troubles that he had, it was, it was good to see that he would be readily able to admit a lot of the wrongs that he had taken the dips he had taken in his life.
I could definitely tell times when he was doing the writing and when his ghost writer was doing the writing, uh, that there were a lot, there were a couple of times there where all of a sudden they got very informative. And I thought, yeah, it’s not the author’s saying that. Uh, but there were other times, like when he was talking all about his wrestling, uh, and the, and the matches that he, he and Dave both did some of the moves that they had to make.
You know, that’s definitely spoken with a wrestler’s tone, which kind of meant it went over my head, but I could understand that I enjoyed the book for what it was. Um, and I am interested. I haven’t seen the movie yet, so I wanna kind of see how that all [00:06:00] comes into play. Jason, what are your thoughts on the book in the.
Environment of wrestling that you are so inside.
Jason Bryant: Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting because there’s, there’s a lot of books that come out about wrestling and not all of them are, are get this type of play. Fox catcher actually had some legitimate chops behind it in terms of publishing where to get it. It wasn’t like, okay, order it from this guy’s website, this would, you can find it readily everywhere.
In terms of speed, you know, I’m not an avid reader. I am a, you know, sometimes I will pick up a book and crush it sometimes I’ll just I’ll struggle through it. So like the last big book I read was the last, the hunger games prequel that came out and it was like, I blistered through that in a weekend. And that thing was like biblical.
So, I mean, it was, it was a large read, whereas like something like Fox catcher, I remember getting on the plane, uh, I might have taken me one trip, like to, and from, I finished it in two sittings from my perspective, because it was a lot of, lot of wrestling, you know, the distinction [00:07:00] of who was involved, the people involved, these are people that are, you know, the secondary characters that are, that are named throughout the book are people that are still involved in the sport.
Or there were high level people that I’ve heard stories about that were active before I got into it. So, uh, and, and, you know, 10, 15 years older than I am. So the prime of their careers was when I was getting into it. So I’m in, I’m looking at this through the wrestling vein of. It’s interesting because I get to see the stories and getting to know Nancy Schultz later, later on in, in my professional career, I’ve only heard bits and pieces of, of the, the mark side of the story, cuz you know, mark and I kind of knew each other 15, 20 years ago, but other than that, there there’s not much of a relationship there.
I’ve tried to get him on the show a couple times and uh, that hasn’t worked out so well, especially, uh, when he was still positive about the film. But when we come to reading it, I flew through it because it’s, it’s my wheelhouse like that is like, I wanna read about mark. I wanna read about Dave. I wanna read about Nancy.
I wanna read about Xander and Danny. Uh, I, I [00:08:00] wanna read about the kids. I want to know. I lived not that far away from that. When I lived in Pennsylvania for a couple years, I, I want to know about the Fox catcher club. I want to, you know, I’ve got friends that, that speak about being on the farm. So. When I’m looking at I’m reading stuff and its, oh, I’ve heard Rob Cole tell that story.
Oh, I’ve heard Ray. Brior tell that story. Oh, I’ve heard rich bender tell that story. You know, these are, these are, you know, I’m, I’m seeing it in print validating some of the, the claims that have been made about DuPont over the years. So I looked at it, you know, and I, and I, I didn’t put the nuance to it as far as, you know, how it was written because sometimes if you’re so immersed in a topic, it could be the worst written thing in the world and you’re gonna get the key points out of it.
No matter if the PS is a little choppy or it’s, it’s written over somebody’s head. So, uh, from a wrestling perspective, it was a quick read and it was, I, I found it educational, not necessarily in the terms of like, oh, I am, you know, I am smarter for having read this, but I’m definitely now it, it fills in some gaps for me, [00:09:00] contextually about stories I had only heard about.
So, uh, from, from that perspective it was, it was a, it was a read that again, you know, like I said, filled some gaps.
Alison Brown: Did you find the wrestling dramatization accurate? Or was it missing pieces?
Jason Bryant: Oh, as far as the way they’re written in the book. No. Uh, everything in terms of the wrestling terminology and you know, I obviously sometimes you have to dumb down the technique for lack of a better term for, because if, if you’re writing about a wrestling move and you say it’s one thing regionally, it could be that in Northeast Ohio, or it could be that com same move could be, be something completely different in Southern California.
So you have to, you. Work on the technique a little bit. So when it’s a little more descriptive or, or just a little more bland where you just say arm throw versus, you know, you step, you know, versus naming the move. So, um, I didn’t feel like the wrestling was overblown or, or even, you know, accentuated. I thought it was pretty true to life and, and how, uh, the, the [00:10:00] type of matches were depicted.
Now maybe, uh, some of the weight cutting stories that were prevalent in the book, I’m like, eh, I don’t know. I mean, is that that’s, that’s Mark’s perspective on it. So again, this is his story. So I, you know, it’s hard to say, well, that’s not how it happened, if that’s how he remembers it. So it’s kind of hard, you know, it’s his perspective.
So that’s one thing to keep in mind and, you know, sometimes, you know, truth is sometimes stranger than fiction and in a sport like wrestling with its all, its isms and nuances and uniqueness is nothing that I read about the wrestling part of it would surprise me.
Book Club Claire: Alison. And Jill, did this educate you at all in the wrestling that you weren’t familiar with?
I know you’ve had interviews with, you know, with Jason as, and learn more about wrestling. Did this help you understand wrestling? Even more than that?
Jill Jaracz: I think for me, I kept touching back to our interview, Jason, and just wrestling back in the day when rules were different. Changed quite frequently. And putting it into kind of that perspective of [00:11:00] the wrestling in the book is different from the way wrestling is today, I believe.
Is that correct to,
Jason Bryant: yeah. Rule sets have, have, I mean, they’re almost very similar to what they used to be. Although, you know, when, when the shelters were coming through in, in 84 and 88, but you know, ti period’s a little different. The, the bracketing system’s different, um, scoring is a little different, but ultimately the techniques stay the same.
So we are closer now to what we were in the late eighties, early nineties than the gap between, uh, like 2005 and 2012, which was the dark ages for, for, for wrestling, with the, the binary code of, uh, you know, oh 1, 1 0 1 oh scores, uh, you know, a tennis style two outta three. So when it comes to the actual wrestling scoring bracketing, yes, it’s different.
And now you can, you cannot take a loss and win a gold medal. Now you could back in that area cuz uh, era cuz of the pool system and just, just how this is how it was scored and, and you, they used a black mark system prior [00:12:00] to that. It was just, it’s a little wonky in terms to try to explain it, cuz I was a kid when those things were going on.
But yeah, the, the wrestling scoring and bracketing from the era marks writing about is different than what we will see, uh, come Tokyo.
Alison Brown: I mean, for me, definitely when he was talking specifically about moves and techniques, that was very new to me. You know, my wrestling education has been with Jason and the research that did related to those, uh, interviews.
So it’s not a sport that I ever watched growing up. It’s it’s not something that I, that, that we had at my high school or that I ever saw. So this was very as a sport, still very uncomfortable for me in that I don’t. Get it, when I watch it, , it’s like I realize when somebody wins and I get the excitement of it, but I do not understand the nuances.
So a lot of the things that he was talking about in the book, I just sort of went with it and followed the story, rather than all those small, I [00:13:00] put my arm this way. I did this to this athlete and, and one, I said, okay, I understand winning. So let’s go with that.
Book Club Claire: I gotta say, I also don’t have a whole lot of wrestling experience.
It, it was a struggle for me to go through the matches when he started to get in great detail.
Jason Bryant: Mm-hmm
Book Club Claire: sometimes I would just gloss over. It’s like, Who
are,
Jason Bryant: and that’s the stuff I live for. That’s that’s, that’s, that’s my education. That’s me getting to know that story, you know, with any wrestling book I read, if it’s, cuz I’m not there in that era, you know, my wrestling knowledge starts around 1998 and I’ve had to backtrack.
So I’m still catching up. I’m, you know, catching up on those stories from the eighties, cuz those people are still alive and can tell ’em. So when I hear nuances about what happens, it matches that’s, that’s my wheelhouse.
Book Club Claire: And maybe that affects how you enjoy the book, because if you love that kind of stuff, when it comes, you gobble it up.
Theme Music: Mm-hmm
Book Club Claire: absolutely as for, as for maybe the three of us, we tend to go more for the, for the throwing the book [00:14:00] against the wall because of more of the personal dramas that were experienced.
Jill Jaracz: The, the other thing I found is that I I’m starting a, after having read a few books in with book club, I’m looking for an author who can.
Differentiate one match from another, they all start sounding alike after a certain point. And even if you proceed that with this is the world champs, or this is the Olympics, everything after that, doesn’t kind of make sense. And I, I feel like I need that interjected in the importance or relevance of the match we, the match we’re reading about and why it made it into the book kind of thing.
I mean, an Olympic match or a world championships, duh, but other, other kinds of things. What’s the, what’s the importance of, oh, I went to, we went to the Soviet union or Russia, or getting onto [00:15:00] back to Dave, like why did he learn Russian kind of thing?
Alison Brown: One of the things that I found very frustrating with this book and, and we’ve talked about this before, I think with Shirley Baha’s book was what kind of book do you wanna be?
Do you wanna tell. The wrestling. Do you wanna talk about all the matches? Do you wanna get into all the different coaching styles and the different gyms and the different colleges, or do you wanna tell the Fox catcher story because Fox catcher the title, but we don’t get to Fox catcher until we’re
Book Club Claire: page 1 63,
Alison Brown: you know, we’re well, well into the book and we’ve spent 160 pages talking about where he puts his arm, but then after that, it, it sort of changes into this other story.
So I found that very frustrating that I didn’t know which story we, we want to tell both of which are valid, both of which could have been [00:16:00] really interesting books, but it felt very smushed together for me.
Book Club Claire: Yeah, I think putting the Fox catcher name on a book like this was tricky, but I don’t think it would’ve sold as well.
If it had just spent a biography of Mark Schultz. Oh yeah. So, you know, you know what he was trying or what at least the publisher was trying to do by sticking that name on it. And it worked
Jason Bryant: welcome to wrestling books. So it it’s, it’s funny cuz there was, for example, there was a movie that just came out that I was in called the last champion and the argument from the wrestling community was there wasn’t enough wrestling in it.
Well, we’ll apply the same thing to a book. If you want mainstream appeal from a movie. The more wrestling, the less mainstream appeal you’re gonna get. So you gotta, you get a it, I agree. And now that Allison good point about it being two separate stories within one bound volume, so to speak, it was cuz there were two distinct stories that were wove together.
So you want the wrestling wrestling, people are gonna want the wrestling story. Cuz there is definitely distinct unique wrestling stories there that, [00:17:00] that cater to people like me and we would’ve bought the book. Then there’s the people who are always curious about DuPont who wanna know that, that what the sinister story about what happened with Fox catcher.
And they’re gonna wanna know that story. And like you guys are gonna kind of, eh, okay. Wrestling it’s there it’s to, to, to half the readers, wrestling’s the backdrop to the other half of the readers. Wrestling’s the story. And I, I guess I can see the, the conundrum trying to say, where do we, where do we balance that?
Because I feel both stories are valid in terms of being told. Good point to bring up. I mean, is this, is this. Do something very different when the wrestling, you know, chap, you know, part one wrestling, part two, the farm, I mean, how do you break that up? And it, it be a, a, and then put it together to where it, it reads like it’s one book.
So I definitely agree with the, it’s a, it’s a tale of two different stories within one book.
Jill Jaracz: And it’s hard because I mean, we’re kind of sold on the Fox catcher bit, but then [00:18:00] you realize that mark and Dave weren’t at the farm at the same time.
Jason Bryant: Right.
Jill Jaracz: And trying to find, you know, what does mark actually know about that time?
And even we didn’t get a whole lot of wrestling at the farm or wrestling while he was at Villanova, because there was a lot of, more of John DuPont was weird and creepy. And I didn’t like him that, that came out a whole lot more than the actual wrestling, which I would’ve appreciated, like understanding in some way.
Having the resources of the farm and John DuPont’s money, what that did for that team, didn’t come across to me in this book, like what, what those athletes could do.
Jason Bryant: Mm-hmm
Jill Jaracz: because they had that funding and why they stayed with the guy who was really creepy, because there was an opportunity to
Jason Bryant: the point there too, is it we’re , you know, we’re not flush with funds in the sport of wrestling.
Now it’s a lot better than it used to be, but here [00:19:00] comes a guy that’s, you know, a lot of people were willing to look the other way because he was funding. Some of you know, was funding. Our national, the us national championships were named the John DuPont national championships. I mean, his name was on everything.
I mean, I’m looking through a, an amateur wrestling news from 1990, or might have been eight, might have been. Early nineties. And it’s like, you know, I’m flipping through for some results looking for something. And there’s, there’s a, an ad for team Fox catcher with, you know, coaching staff. It’s like John DuPont, Greg Strobel, you know, Dale Zel, like come train with the best.
And then on the other page is like results of the, you know, of an Olympic festival or the John DuPont, us national championships. So, uh, this is a guy that was putting a lot of money into the system, which there was no money to begin with. Guys are working in as assistant wrestling coaches, like, uh, like it’s depicted both in, in the book and the film and, um, the situation was okay, well, there’s, there’s a way to fund it.
So there there’s a story, right? There is, there’s still a lot of, you know, to be a high level wrestler. There’s a lot of [00:20:00] poverty involved and this is something that, that all alert people and you allure people to the farm. Oh wow. We can, we can get paid to train. You know, this is the late eighties, this is happening.
So, and that was just unheard of, not only that, it was also, you know, there were, there were foreign athletes training, like Valentine Jordan Donoff was, was training there. I believe he was the heir to the, to, to John DuPont’s estate, you know, or wherever his will was, whatever was left of it in his inheritance or whatever.
But it was, it was very different in terms of how that whole landscape was in that era.
Book Club Claire: And that’s the overarching theme of all the books that we’ve ever read about the Olympics is not the Olympics. It’s. The amateur slash professional aspect of it. And we are this book. I don’t know if we’ve done any books in the eighties.
I don’t think we really have, but this is where it starts to change where professional athletes are allowed more and more to be in the Olympics and to be paid, to be professional athletes. And this is kind of the cusp [00:21:00] of it. So he’s talking about USA wrestling and how it really took away a lot of the money from the athletes themselves.
You’d have to tell me, Jason, if this is still a thing, uh, as opposed to three years ago, but it’s, this is the, the thing where once again, it’s, it’s, you know, even though these authors are all working independently, they all derive that one topic of it’s really hard to be an Olympian because they didn’t let us get paid.
Jason Bryant: Well, it still is hard because unlike other sports like swimming or track and field individual sports, there’s only one shot at the Olympics for a particular weight class. Whereas, you know, Michael Phelps can swim. How many events and a wrestler, you got one shot because very rare is the, is the, the athlete who can wrestle both styles because they’re so different.
I mean, I think you had the Swedes back in the day that would, would wrestle both freestyle and Greco Roman. So at most you get two bites at the apple, whereas, uh, wrestling, you got one. And now, now there [00:22:00] went from 10 weight classes to now six. So right now you’ve got as, as a male freestyle wrestler, you have six shots and the weight classes are much more spread apart.
And your national team stipend first, second, and third, that’s what they fund from USA wrestling, not a living wage by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s, you know, it’s access to the training center, camps, tours and things like that, but you get one shot. So, um, you know, you could have your three best runners in the world be from the United States.
You could now theoretically, your three best wrestlers in the world are weight. Class could be from Russia. They’re that good? So, but we don’t have that in wrestling. So you got one shot every four years because the world championships is great. It’s a tougher tournament than the Olympics, but it’s tougher to get to the Olympics cuz there’s only a 16 man bracket, whereas the worlds will be up to 40 or 50 because you got opportunities.
So, um, in, in terms of the funding, now we have the living, the dream metal fund, for example, that USA wrestling does the us O C also has its own payout for, for metals, but like for, for an Olympic gold medal, this started, [00:23:00] uh, after 2008, a bunch of, you know, we had some wrestling people with some money guys like Mike Nova grads.
Who’s a, a, you know, billionaire hedge fund guy wrestled at Princeton and some others with some, some high dollars said, all right, we’re gonna start this living, the dream metal fund. And so $250,000 goes to, uh, an Olympic gold medalist, you know, 2 50, 1 25 and 50 I think are what we get for, for gold, silver and bronze during the Olympic year, the world that’s 50, 25.
And. 10 or 15. So, uh, the Olympics has that allure. So to like a Jordan burrows in 2012 hits two 50 good Kyle Snyder in 20 16, 2 50 good. And his bank account, but there’s hundreds of other athletes that will miss that chance. And they’re gonna try to find a place to train, find a place to get paid it’s.
Now you can, you can get paid by a wrestling club or what they call in colleges are putting in these regional training centers. They call ’em RTCs. So, uh, Penn state, Iowa, Oklahoma state, of course the usual suspects, but then you’re seeing RTCs at smaller schools trying to compete and get one guy to train like [00:24:00] Clarion, for example, a small division two school in Pennsylvania with division one wrestling they’ll have athlete or two training there to try to make the national team and, and try to train for the Olympics there.
And they’ll have some payment from the wrestling club. So, uh, there’s a lot easier way to do it now. But even, even through before 2008, you had a lot, we lost a lot of wrestlers going to MMA because all right, well, what do I wanna be seventh on the ladder? Or do I want to go punch people in the face and make some money and, and be on TV?
MMA was a lot more viable option for a lot of these people to make a living using their combat sports background. And even now we’re seeing the WWE reenter the fray in terms of athletes of, of the larger weight classes have an opportunity to make a live using their athletic talents. And there’s less of a stigma attached to that.
Like the old school wrestling people. Oh, that’s a disgrace to wrestling. Well, it’s it’s sports entertainment. Okay. It’s not actual wrestling. We know that it’s a disre. It’s a, it’s a display of athleticism. They are athletes. It’s a sporting ask competition, but it’s not a sport. [00:25:00] So. Once people get over, that’s
Alison Brown: hot.
Like how
Jason Bryant: takes money on? So
Alison Brown: go to CIR Dule or skaters go to Disney on ice.
Jason Bryant: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, what was, what did will Ferrell do in, uh, in blades of glory? You know, that stuff so there’s my, there’s my rant about how we, uh, we make money today compared to the DuPont era.
Book Club Claire: Sure. I guess we can turn to DuPont himself.
We’ve we haven’t really talked about him too much, but yes, he was a weird person. I honestly did not know if he was still live or dead, but that was answered at the end of the book. He, he has since died, I think, 11 years ago while he was in prison. And I wanna
Jason Bryant: say December, 2010, if memory serves,
Book Club Claire: yeah. You just kind of wasted away in prison.
Uh,
Jason Bryant: gonna have to Google that cause I remember asking, I had Xander Schultz on my show, not to probably a couple years ago and asked them the significance of the date. And he had no idea what I was, he didn’t the date didn’t jump out. He was like, oh, what’s that? What’s what’s [00:26:00] that I go that’s the day John DuPont died.
And he was like, oh, I didn’t know that. So it’s pretty interesting to see that how, how people move on from certain things and 30 something like Xander Schultz, which is, you know, Dave’s son and, you know, having to deal with such a tragedy at a young age. I mean, to me, that’s another story is granted again, this is Mark’s story.
This is not Mark’s story about Dave it’s Mark’s story about mark. So we, we’re not gonna get the, you know, the Danielle and, and Xander’s story. As much as the wrestling people would like to see it. It’s, uh, it’s very interesting that to, to catch the perspectives about this whole story from everybody that was involved, especially the kids.
You know, very young. I don’t know, Danielle, I think I’ve talked to her once ever, but, uh, but yeah, Xander speak to, eh, Brian a couple times a year.
Alison Brown: And it’s funny you say that Jason, because that actually, I think was my greatest frustration with the book that this was Mark’s story. And when you look at the John DuPont elements of the story Mark’s perspective to me is not the one that I want to know more about.
Like I, I kind of [00:27:00] would like to, and I probably will go back now and watch the documentary, get that third person view of what was happening at the farm. You know, get the view of what was happening at the farm when Dave was there when his family was there. I mean, it blows my mind that if John DuPont was that nefarious and malicious, that he would have his family there with him.
It just seems so, you know, given what we do learn about Dave in the book, that he was very caring, that he was devoted to his family, that if John DuPont truly seemed dangerous, that he would’ve allowed his kids to live there with him, I just felt like something was really missing in what mark was saying about what was happening at the farm.
Jason Bryant: Well, again, that goes, that goes to the story again, where the movie moves off from the book cuz mark wasn’t there when Dave was killed. So a lot of that first person stuff about that time and the kids, it, it, they weren’t there at the same time. So while there’s, you know, the [00:28:00] movie picks up with, you know, Dave living on the farm and, you know, mark being actively involved in the club there, you know, they did compress the timeline because again, back to what we’ve said, do we want more wrestling or do we want more drama?
Which one’s gonna, you know, if it’s a wrestling story, you’re not gonna read about this or watch it. If it’s a, a dramatic story you’re gonna, you’re gonna have to make some, take some creative license with the timeline. So I had less of an issue with that, but as far as, you know, knowing the story of, of Danny and Xander and.
Nancy. Yeah. That’s but again, mark, wasn’t there. So I guess that’s one thing that, you know, people will say, oh, the timeline’s not right. Well, you know, we look at the book, well, mark still wasn’t there for, for that particular horrible moment in time. I mean, I, you know, as much as I’ve heard about Dave Schultz, I, I never met the man.
Uh, you know, he, I I’ve heard, got into international wrestling the summer after he was shot. So, um, I, I certainly have plenty of Dave Schults stuff in this room right now and, and amateur wrestling, nos with him on the cover and things of that nature. I mean, you, you talk about how as, as an ambassador, I mean, this [00:29:00] guy was.
Just beloved worldwide. You know, the Russians loved him because he made the, he took the chance to learn their culture, speak the language, just his innovations, innovation and styles, and just his, every man kind of look, I mean, a balding guy with a beard. He, he, and with those big glasses in the eighties, he, he looked like a giant nerd and he would just go beat you over the head with yourself.
And, and mark, on the other hand, mark was much more physically imposing a, a brute, a, a Greek godlike person who would literally, instead of beating your, your, your, your head with your own arm, he would rip it off and then do it. I mean, mark was definitely a, you know, was the meaner of the two. So, um, Dave knew how to do the elegant violence, whereas he would definitely make you feel pain based on stories I’ve heard.
Whereas mark would definitely know you’re feeling in pain like . So, um, the two were, were vastly different personality wise based on, you know, My interactions with, with those around him. But again, the stories that, that we want to know about sometimes with, with [00:30:00] Dave, um, aren’t here because this is again it’s Mark’s story.
Book Club Claire: Now, Allison, you mentioned a documentary.
Alison Brown: I know there’s a documentary about the story.
Jason Bryant: There’s several there’s several. So there’s, there’s one on Netflix. There’s one on ESPN. Uh, the one on Netflix I believe was called team Fox catcher, which Nancy had something to do with the one on ESPN. The 30 for 30 was called prince of Pennsylvania, which was more about DuPont.
And then we’ve got the, the movie Fox catcher, which was, you know, Bennett Miller’s adaptation of the mark she’s story. So those all, I mean, again, you’re gonna see some contradictory stuff if you watch those compare the book, but, um, the documentaries and the book, do you know, they run together in terms of the timeline.
So that’ll help you fill in the gaps with both the, the questions. If you’re on the wrestling side, wanna know more about what was the deal with the wrestling thing? Um, the Villanova thing really isn’t discussed a whole lot because, um, Yik DuPont broke every NCAA rule in the book at Villanova. That’s why the, the team only lasted two years.
They’re [00:31:00] like. You know, the CALS are like, Nope, we’re getting rid of this. We’re not dealing with this guy. So, uh, you know, of course DuPont’s name was on their natatorium forever at Villanova. So, uh, cuz he was also very fond of swimming. Yeah. So those, those documentaries will also help if you’re interested in the entire scope of the story, as, you know, getting off track, getting back to the book here in a moment, but the whole story there’s, there’s so many different moving parts to it that it’s just it’s again, truth is stranger than fiction with this whole thing.
Jill Jaracz: The interesting part about this being Mark’s story is that you get a sense that even though he loved his brother, but they weren’t all that close. And of course this is not a guy who’s gonna write down his life and take a journal while he’s living. But I, I just got the impression that they weren’t all that close and at the, at the end end, when he is talking about, oh, I wrote this book so that my kids would know what their old man did.
That’s what, what he set out to write. And somebody was able to say, oh, [00:32:00] Hey, if you spin it this way, we can sell this and you can make some coin.
Jason Bryant: Well, wrestling’s also a very selfish sport. It is uniquely you. Yes. You need a team around you to help you train. But you know, they’re, they’re, you know, while they compete in the same weight class you don’t necessarily need.
Okay. My brother is a good wrestler too. That doesn’t mean you’re gonna go train with your brother. Because as I said, stylistically, they were vastly different. Where, you know, Dave is more loosey goosey and mark is more like pound you into the, into the pavement. So stylistically, Dave’s not gonna get a feel like wrestlers at his weight class based on the, the brawling style that mark would’ve wrestled in that era.
So it would, it’s not uncommon for, for, for people that are related to, to not train together. Now, most of the time you, you like twins, for example, train together all the time, but. You know, you’ve got brothers training in different spots and you know, whether it be an age gap there, I mean, it’s, it’s not uncommon now, especially since there’s more options, but you know, they did go to the same college.
They, you know, they, they were together a lot in their career, but, you know, as, as they got [00:33:00] older, they got to become adults. They had lives and families. So, I mean, it’s, you know, once you, once you have to put a making, living to fund your Olympic dream, it’s not like you can hang out around with your brother the entire time.
So, uh, there’s, there’s, there’s different. There’s levels to that. I would.
Book Club Claire: All right. All I wanna talk about is that John DuPont is a crazy person. I want to default, I wanna talk about this with you all. So this was the first time I really got to know a little more about John DuPont, other than his name, cuz I’m familiar with the name DuPont from auto racing.
I think he, that that name is a sponsor of a racer. So I remember that I wasn’t Jeff Gordon. I I’m pretty sure. Yeah,
Jason Bryant: it was Jeff Gordon. Aha.
Book Club Claire: Cool. Um, so that’s all I knew by him or about the name DuPont. And then I find out all this stuff and I’m just enamored by it and I don’t wanna find out more, but I wanna find out more just it it’s, it’s such a, it’s such a weird story [00:34:00] and his life in Pennsylvania with his, with his parents, um, he was the youngest, uh, and all his siblings were much older than him, so they didn’t really have a relationship with him.
He wanted to be an Olympian and. Was convinced he could like even had like a mosaic of him doing the pentathlon. So just all these stories and just of, of a, a guy who was so sheltered in his life and it really built him up to be, you know, not what we would consider to be normal. And it ended up inflicting harm and threatening people, you know, even if he didn’t mean it, I’m just, I, I find him to be just the, the oddest person and to it’s so sad to, to see how that negatively impacted the sport of wrestling in the Olympics and USA wrestling.
But, but, and then also all of the, the families that he [00:35:00] affected in that way.
Alison Brown: So many of those families like the DuPont and the Rockefellers and the Vanderbilt obviously have this, this certain place in American history. And we hit the mid 20th century and all the crazy starts coming out in those families.
And it’s sort of like once the Giled age is over, but they still have all this money. There are these various little bits in, in American history where those kinds of families work their way into these bizarre stories like this.
Jason Bryant: Well, part of it too, is their family tree. Didn’t fork a whole lot. If you can kind of put two and two together there, I mean, let’s draw Jeff Foxworth references.
That was something that’s also been talked about about the, the DuPont tree is their like distrusting of the outsiders. Like, all right, there was, you know, a lot of, lot of cousins that were, uh, you know, married so we can draw some. Conclusions on, on just, you know, the, the genetic [00:36:00] makeup of, of what that causes.
But, um, another thing too, is, is the crazy. Some people realize are crazy. So my co announcer at the NCAA championships, Brian hazard was a pretty good wrestler growing up and he lived in Northern Virginia. So it wasn’t very far away from, from that area of Pennsylvania. And his dad was a wrestling coach would not let Brian go train a Fox catcher when he was growing up would not, Nope.
You’re not going up there. You’re not going to that crazy guy. And you know, this is, you know, parents are even aware of it and this is, you know, early nineties. So this is still a couple years before Dave was shot. So, and, and even DuPont was to your point about being obsessive about sport DuPont gave money to the international Federation, uh, and there, they created a master’s division, basically the, the old man division.
So DuPont and that scene, there’s a scene in the movie in spoiler alert, uh, where, you know, somebody’s handing a, a wad of cash to wrestler to, to throw a match against DuPont, uh, and DuPont. According to everybody that, that watched him wrestle in that era was [00:37:00] just horrible at it. And it was, it was just basically, Hey, I’m gonna buy myself a world championship and call myself a world champion.
I mean, it’s that type of, I mean, to be so rich to, to be able to just buy yourself a whole division I mean, it’s just like, it’s, it’s unheard of because it’s, you know, you don’t wanna ever compete uncontested or, but Hey, you know, the optics, oh, I’m a world champion. And then going to the world championships and funding the wrestlers from Fox catcher, he was in the corner for, for guys, from other countries that were training there.
And then like, I coach, you know, Jordan Donoff is like, uh, that guy was totally good before he came to your farm. So it’s, it’s weird. And he also was an avid birder. So if you look up John DuPont’s name, you might be able to find bird watching books. He wrote. Way back in the day. Yeah. It’s, it’s strange. It is.
I remember coming across, I was like, wait that John E DuPont wrote a book [00:38:00] about bird watching. Now that’s not gonna be on book club. I guarantee you, I it’s strange. Yes. Weird, strange. And I, you know, rich, Bender’s the executive director at USA wrestling prior to his position there, he worked as the events director and he told me a story.
One time he’s coming outta Vegas and rich had to carry the team trophy to team Fox catcher. And he says, said, DuPont came out of the back door, looked at me and went I’m the devil. And just walked away from him. And rich tells me story. He is like, yeah, I knew I was. I said, I knew right then and there, that guy was strange.
And you know, yikes. I just remember rich telling me a story. I remember Rob Cole telling the story. He’s the head coach at Cornell. He was, he was a world team member. Talked about the tank. That was in the, we talking about driving the tank around. Yeah. Right. That’s true. Like, and so there were Cadillacs in the pond, just driving cars into the pond frequently.
I mean, and just, you know, shooting guns everywhere. Cuz he had just acres and acres of land. I mean just this, you know, and sometimes the imagery of, of that Fox catcher [00:39:00] shirt, which kind of became a little popular again because of the movie and chanting Tatum wearing it. And you know, I saw somebody wearing that shirt in Fargo and one of the athletes that used to train a Fox catcher who just revolves the whole situation, had to leave the facil.
He’s like I cannot be around that. He had to leave the, the shirt was a trigger so much that he had to leave the building. So, um, the, the name, uh, again, some people refuse to say it he’s like the vort of wrestling in some, some ways that he he’s who, who he was not be named. But yeah, just the weirdness, I mean, the stories I’ve heard could be its own show.
I mean, and, and I wasn’t even around then. So imagine that what the people that actually saw it firsthand heard about it or, or, or had been at the farm or trained there, or, or, you know, trained with Dave and mark it’s it’s the DuPont story is a very, very twisted it’s it’s it’s it’s a tragedy is what it is.
I mean, if, if it’s a it’s in terms of the leery terms, DuPont story is a tragedy. It’s not a tragedy in terms of, oh, that’s too bad. No, it’s, [00:40:00] you know, if you’re gonna put something that’s just terrible from the get go, you saw it. You know, it was like watching a train wreck that’s way. A lot of people describe John DuPont is him getting involved in this sport and, you know, giving money.
Okay. A lot of people made, made a living because of what, you know, money provided in that area. And then you. I guess there’s, there’s no real delicate way of, of saying what happened. Just, it’s just, it’s ugly. It’s it’s still a black eye on the sport of wrestling and, and you guys made the point. We, we took this great hero of wrestling away from us that, that at 36, I mean, if I’m 41, so Dave would still be here.
What would Dave be doing right now? That’s the one thing that I, I look at, you know, again, still Mark’s story, but what would Dave be doing right now? Dave would be the biggest advocate sport wrestling for poison girls in the world. Dave would be so much to the sport wrestling and so much to [00:41:00] physical education teachers.
And, you know, I, you know, Arnold was on the presidential council for physical fitness. That should have been Dave Schultz. You know, those are the types of things that Dave Schultz would’ve done. And sadly, we can only just, you know, hypothesize on how great he would’ve been, you know, post 1996,
Alison Brown: You know, this reminds me very much of things that we talked about around athlete a, when we were talking about all the, uh, abuse, scandals and gymnastics, and it was everybody knew, quote unquote, it was going on.
Everybody knew John DuPont was a serious problem and a serious black eye on the sport. But like in athlete, a, these coaches who were abusing the athletes kept winning. So people kept turning a blind eye to it. And with John DuPont, he kept pumping in the money. So people kept turning a blind eye until you can’t, you know, until obviously he, he murders Dave [00:42:00] Schultz or, or with athlete a, when you have Larry Nassar finally exposed, what upset me the most is that these things keep happening.
We keep excusing things because there’s a gold medal at the end of the. Whether it’s abuse, whether it’s insanity, we keep excusing things. And we, as fans can’t do that, obviously we’re not responsible for all of that, but we also have to love our athletes when they fail and when they’re poor and when they’re struggling and not just say a gold medal excuses, everything you’ve been through because we need to protect these kids.
And Dave Schult sort have been protected. You know, all those people at Fox capture should have been protected and should have had another avenue. And shouldn’t have had to rely on a man who drove a tank into a lake and was shooting guns next door. I mean, [00:43:00] it just, we’re not protecting our athletes enough
Book Club Claire: and that’s gonna be the case, you know, until things either you need to have those sparks every now and then I, I guess in order for things to change.
Final thoughts from everyone,
Jason Bryant: but I will just, uh, just follow back with, if you’re interested in filling out the story, if you’ve read the book and, and honestly, again, from a, there’s a, a wrestling geek point, you know, there’s there’s facts in there. I mean, you know, again, it’s, it’s Mark’s perspective, but there’s, there are resources out there to help you fill in the gaps.
The, the two documentaries that we mentioned, prince of Pennsylvania and team Fox catcher, along with, uh, sadly the, the movie, which, um, if I may speak again, spoiler alert, if you haven’t seen it, um, was the first time I technically really got to experience the situation, seeing it on screen and on film. I, I, you know, you know, the, with the, obviously, you know, the, you know, what happens, Dave gets shot.
So when that I see that on screen [00:44:00] and I’m, I’m, I’m there and just seeing it, it just, you know, it’s like, One of those things like the movie. Yeah. It’s a, it’s a good movie. I hated it. I hated every second. I mean, I it’s, it’s one of those things where yeah, it’s a real good movie. Get past the, the, the factual differences in, in real life, looking at it from an entertainment standpoint.
I hated it. So keep that in mind, if you, if you’re gonna watch the movie based that the book’s based on, but the two documentaries out there, again, team Fox catcher in, in prince of Pennsylvania, really do help fill out this story. If you’re interested in, in filling out to know a little bit more about Dave, a little bit, know a little bit more about Nancy, uh, cuz Nancy’s still active in wrestling.
Um, there are, there are shirts out there that do the, they, this brand Rutu, which I, I briefly did a podcast with, uh, at the rutu.com. You can actually get Dave Schultz’s shirts. They’ve they’ve got, um, you know, the rights. Dave Schults wrestling club, throwback shirts, you know, a way of life, Dave Schultz. I mean, uh, he, he’s a great ambassador.
So those are the things that if you wanna know more about [00:45:00] the Dave Schults, part of the mark Schults story, those are some places you can go and, and, and find something out. And if you’re you’re engaged in it, you know, you know, the those shirts and, and such Nancy’s involved in that company. So it’s, it’s, it’s a pretty cool that with all the tragedy that happened around Dave’s pass Dave’s murder was we, we still say the name, Dave Schultz frequently.
He’s not forgotten. Mark’s not forgotten. I know Mark’s very bitter about a lot of things, but mark you’re, you’re an Olympic champion. You’re not forgotten. Um, you know, our sport hasn’t really done the greatest job. At, at giving our past Olympic heroes they’re they’re due. And, you know, I get that, but, um, some of that too is also personal responsibility.
So I mean, Mark Schultz is an American hero in the sport of wrestling. Dave Schultz is American hero in the sport of wrestling. Ruland Gardner Henry STO, Jordan burrows, Helen Merus, you know, I mean, we’ve got those heroes. So, um, and, and, you know, Mark’s story is, is sadder than most. And it, if you wanna know more about [00:46:00] this whole situation, again, those, those are my recommendations for documentaries that, that carry along or again, fill in the gaps for this story.
Jill Jaracz: The story is very tragic and I hoped this would, this book would have given me more insight. I have seen the movie, I need to see it again. Cause I saw it when it came out and I get that the movie’s gonna compressed timelines for dramatic stuff and, and it heightened the drama of the story, but this did not give me the insight I had hoped for.
And even though mark and Dave loved each other. It didn’t seem like mark had enough details from his own life. Even his experience with John DuPont to fill out a whole book. And just even with, uh, throwing in the, how I got to be an Olympian, uh, Olympic champion that still, it still didn’t do it for me.
It’s just, I’m not, I’m not sure mark and I, I’m not sure we ever like to meet.
Book Club Claire: Okay. [00:47:00] so that that’ll put a button on this book, Fox catcher. Um, but like Jason was saying, if you wanna get more information, definitely. Don’t just read this book, look into other avenues, the documentaries, um, the, the foundations that are out there.
So, um, maybe Jill, if you wanna leave some show notes and just kind of say, Hey, here’s some other things you can look at. That’ll help flesh out the understanding of what happened at that time. And, uh, not just Mark’s life, but Dave’s life as well. So with that in mind, I think we can turn to our next book.
Uh, and that book is going to be, um, more of a contemporary book, uh, called sevens heaven, not seventh heaven with a th but sevens like rugby sevens. And it is about the 2016 rugby sevens match at the Olympics, which featured the Fiji team winning it all. And this book was written by Ben Ryan [00:48:00] and published right after the Rio games.
And I gotta say, I am very excited for this book. Uh, I don’t know about the rest of you, but
Jill Jaracz: I’m so excited.
Book Club Claire: I don’t know that much about rugby.
Alison Brown: Yeah. I was gonna say my experience with rugby involves the rugby team at my college, which, um, they were interesting drinking partners and that’s what I know about rugby.
Book Club Claire: Yeah, I, and considering rugby just started in 2016 in the Olympics. Uh, the sevens, not the full rugby like they do in international competition, but the fact that it just started makes it even more fascinating that we are experiencing a new Olympic sport and how it kind of gets into the Olympics and how a, a country that is not known for its gold medals ends up taking the gold.
And I’m just, I can’t wait to hear more about that country, about the athletes that come from there, how rugby, uh, is in their culture [00:49:00] and how it all comes to play and wraps up in 2016. And, and of course, we’re gonna probably be doing this after the 2020 Olympics, which are in 2021. Uh, and so if you get excited about rugby as you watch it.
Make sure to pick up this book and then we will have a jolly good time talking about it, probably August or September sometime. So thank you, Jill. Thank you, Allison. And thank you Jason, for joining us today.
Jill Jaracz: Thank you, Claire.
Jason Bryant: My pleasure.
Jill Jaracz: Thank you so much, Claire and Jason read Claire’s blog. Liked the caldron and follow her on Twitter at caldron light.
Uh, the blog is called light. The caldron at blur musings dot light. The caldron.com. You can listen to the dot tones of jasonBryant@matttalkonline.com and follow him on Twitter and Insta Jason M. Bryant. We will have links to all of that in the show notes. And our next book will be seven seven. The beautiful chaos of Fiji’s Olympic by Ben Ryan.
If you buy it [00:50:00] through our shop at bookshop.org/shop/flame alive pod, we will get a little commission from that, which. Grows to greatly support the work of this show, especially as we gear up for Tokyo and then look to travel to Beijing in 2022.
TKFLASTAN News
Alison Brown: Welcome to shook Luan.
Jill Jaracz: Yes. It’s time to check in with our past guests who comprised team keep the flame alive. And our citizens of our very own country shook Stan, a lot of happy news this week. So our, uh, archivist Terry hedge pit is the new executive director of the Churchhill county museum in Fallon, Nevada,
Alison Brown: someplace else for us to visit when we can travel again,
Jill Jaracz: no exciting
Alison Brown: author, Harry B Stein’s new book games of discontent protests, boycots and politics at the 1968.
Mexico Olympics has been released. Pick up your copy through the storefront at [00:51:00] bookshop.org/shop/flame alive pod. And we’re working on scheduling Harry to come back and talk to us about that book as.
Jill Jaracz: And then finally videographer Sean Callahan has been nominated for a regional Emmy award with his politics partner, Allison king for the NBC 10 Boston report, political harmony.
So congratulations. That is a huge honor. Uh, we’d like to give a thank you to, and a shout out to our Patreon patrons for keeping our flame alive. We will have a new bonus episode for you coming out this week because we are at the end of a month. And, uh, we’re featuring a little extra clip from Dominique Jones on that talking about three X three.
And, uh, we’re also talking about the team USA media summit. So that is exclu exclusive to our bronze level and above patrons. But, uh, you can find out how you can get it at patreon.com/flame alive.
Atlanta 1996 Olympic History Moment: The torch relay
It is the 25th [00:52:00] anniversary of the 19 Atlanta, 1996 Olympics. So throughout the year, we are featuring some of the stories from these games
Alison Brown: and your turn this week. So I get to hear a story, exactly story time with Jill.
Jill Jaracz: I, I, this week I wanted to talk about the torch relay because this is the week that the torch arrived in the United States.
So it was, uh, the hundredth anniversary of the Olympics. The torch relay was a big, big deal. So it was, did the traditional lighting in Olympia. They did the relay across Greece. It must have been huge because they had like 800 torch bears in this thing, Tor the flame arrive in Athens. April 6th, they have this huge celebration in the, uh, pan at the at thetic stadium and representatives of the 17 cities that had hosted the summer games before Atlanta were there.
They all got little flames in the lamps. And during the next 21 days, they took ’em home and they celebrated the flames in all of the former host cities, [00:53:00] which I think was a really nice touch.
Alison Brown: Oh, I didn’t remember that at all.
Jill Jaracz: I know. Right. So then during that time, the main flame burned in Athens. And then when it left Athens to fly to LA, all of those 17 host city flames were extinguished.
Now we get to LA the torch of the flame arrives on April 27th. And the torch itself was weighed 3.5 pounds. One of the lightest torches in Olympic history and the first torch to be gripped in the center. As opposed to on
Alison Brown: the bottom.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. Usually they had like the bottom with like a little handle and I’m really thinking of like Helsinki or Mexico city or something like that, where they had the little handle, like a big guard and then torch this one had the handle on the center.
The handle was made of Georgia pecan wood
Alison Brown: appropriately.
Jill Jaracz: Yes, exactly. The on the torches engraved the list of all the summer games, it had these 22 aluminum reads that were representative of the total number of modern [00:54:00] games additions. Then it also had the emblem of the 1996 Centennial Olympic games and the quilt of leaves motif.
Uh, the torch relay itself in America was pretty big. I think it was really big for that time. It was 84 days long, 10,000 torch bearers. This was the first time Koch was the exclusive sponsor of the entire relay and the torch was scheduled to go through 42 states, Washington. Visit nine, uh, 29 state capitals.
The, the route was designed to be a two hour distance maximum from 90% of the us population. And it visited 11 pairs of what we call twin cities. So it visited Albany, Georgia, and Albany, New York, Columbia, Mississippi, Columbia, South Carolina, that kind of thing.
Alison Brown: Huh.
Jill Jaracz: Which is, which is also interesting traveled by cable car.
It had a special 19 car union Pacific train, [00:55:00] which had its own caldron car in the back where the flame would travel. And it’s cool because I had this posted on, or this fact posted on Twitter during our daily Atlanta moment. And listener, Rosie has a picture with her of herself with the train. So she posted that on Twitter too.
It’s it’s fantastic.
Alison Brown: I guess that would’ve been a smoking car ,
Jill Jaracz: uh, traveled by pony express. It traveled in space on the space shuttle. It traveled by tall ship. It traveled by Olympic rowboat by bike, by native American canoe by a paddle wheel steamer boat by a, this is kind of complicated, but a two mile stretch of the old eerie canal in New York was restored, especially for the torch relay so that it could go on a replica of a 19th century mule drawn packet boat.
Down the section of the canal.
Alison Brown: Well, remember this is the time when money is no object, the Olympic
Jill Jaracz: I know, right.
Alison Brown: We’re just gonna [00:56:00] restore the canal.
Jill Jaracz: Right. It’s you know, that
Alison Brown: lead your works.
Jill Jaracz: And you know that it’s not necessarily the, the Olympics or the organizing committee that says this, but you know, it’s just like, oh, Hey, we’re looking at your area for the torch.
Oh, Hey, why don’t we restore this thing for you? It’ll be a great reason. This always happens. It went by fairy boat to the statue of Liberty. And it was also on the only operational short Sunland flying boat, which is basically is a British boat slash airplane. You could go down a rabbit hole looking at this thing because
Alison Brown: how all the different vehicles it was
Jill Jaracz: was that
Alison Brown: boats.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. Yeah. It was a lot of boats. So when it gets to LA. First torch. Bear is Ray for Johnson who lit the cauldron in 84. He passed the, the flame, the torch to Gina Hempel. She was the same person who passed the flame to him in 1984. [00:57:00] Right.
Alison Brown: That’s amazing.
Jill Jaracz: Right?
Alison Brown: That’s wonderful.
Jill Jaracz: So, uh, some other notable torch bears, especially in the, uh, Southern California district director, Robert EKK who among other pitchers did Forrest Gump, pat St.
Jack and van and white, who hosts a wheel of fortune,
Alison Brown: which tells you how long that show has been on.
Jill Jaracz: Right. I think she must have been hosting today, the today show then, but Katie Corick journalist, obviously president Clinton, pro football quarterback, Dan Marino, other fun facts. It in Oklahoma, it traveled through Jim Thorpe’s hometown.
The torch went to Hoover dam in Henderson, Nevada. It was greeted by miss universe, pageant contestants. I knew you would like that detail. Well,
Alison Brown: that that’s so hot. We didn’t have to worry about that flame going out.
Jill Jaracz: in, uh, Emporia, Kansas. It stopped at the teachers hall of fame and Tokyo, 1964, legend. Billy [00:58:00] Mills spoke there with the flame.
So, okay. Here’s what happened in Chicago. And I have no recollection of this. I must have been, I, I have no idea why I knew nothing about the torch relay, but I must, it must have come in during the day and I probably had to work. So I just, those things, you know, ignore. So in Chicago, they had, uh, a enormous gathering at grant park, which is one of the parks right downtown.
And they had 106 Greek youth who were selected by the Lennic Olympic committee to participate in exchange in an exchange program. So they’re all there. Right. It it’s just kind of crazy at how much was going on. Flame then goes to a university of Chicago campus where Pierre de Cooperton went to the 1893 worlds fair and found the site that he loved the place and wanted to advocate for it to host the 1904 games, which of course was supposed to be in Chicago and lost out to St.
Louis. [00:59:00] It did the Boston marathon route when it was in Boston, and this was a busy, busy flame. It was in Rhode Island. It passed by the Foundry where all the medals were cast in Princeton, New Jersey. It was brought to the grave of William Milligan, Sloan friend of Pierre de Cooperton and who is considered the founder of the Olympic movement in the United States.
Alison Brown: Right. And if you go back and watch our favorite ridiculous miniseries.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah, yeah,
Alison Brown: yeah. From TV 1896, he is the major character. PA played by David Ogden, steers of mash fame.
Jill Jaracz: And then I had a, a slumber what, what it was called a slumber party at the white house . So I was watching
Alison Brown: this considering bill Clinton was president that is very concerning.
Jill Jaracz: So according to, uh, this, this is I found from via Washington DC, PBS station’s history blog, [01:00:00] which is a fantastic little blog entry. And, uh, they referenced a Washington post article that, uh, talked about how the Georgia state patrol officers who were part of the Olympic caravan and provided protection to the flame.
They had to be given access to the white house grounds to protect the flame while it stayed at the white house. And they didn’t really get along with the secret service . And so. If the, the, the secret service found out pretty quickly, that if they didn’t let in the Georgia state patrol, the secret service would have to learn how to take care of the flame.
And apparently the flame is got a lot of detail going on. So they had to make space. They, they brought in a special caldron, so the flame could have a proper bed. Apparently the, the flame stayed in the blue room. Flame also went to university of Virginia and, and that ceremony there, and, and like seriously, every time it stopped [01:01:00] someplace, it had like three ceremonies a day.
This was a big deal. This flame did a lot of work. So the flame ceremony at university of Virginia included the daughter of a us athlete who participated at Athens 1896. I know. Where, where do they find these people? It went to the home of Jesse Owens. It went to this, uh, Jasmine hill gardens near Waka, Alabama, which was created in honor of Olympia Greece.
And they have a full scale replica of the temple of Hara there. Sadly, the gardens closed last year in may. And I was looking cause I was looking it up and people kept talking about, oh man, we had our wedding there. It was so beautiful. It was such a fabulous time. And you could see all the statuary and stuff.
It looked like a pretty impressive place. in Dalton, Georgia, which is a major carpet manufacturing area. They officially rolled out the red carpet on the entire roadway, leading into downtown [01:02:00] too bad.
Alison Brown: That carpet wasn’t flamable
Jill Jaracz: Don. Everyone was careful. Everyone was careful. So by the end of the relay crowds are, the flame
Alison Brown: is exhausting.
Jill Jaracz: The flame is exhausted, but then the crowds keep getting bigger and bigger. It slowed the torch down to the point where it was running nearly all day long. It was going like 22 hours a day. And it wasn’t supposed to go that long. But the one thing they managed to do was keep the knowledge of who would light the caldron a secret.
And we know who that is, but we’ll keep that story there because that selection process was also very interesting.
Tokyo 2020 News
Alison Brown: We got playbook updates.
Jill Jaracz: Yes. End of April, just as promised the Tokyo 2020 organizing committee has released version two of its playbooks. Uh, the one for athletes and team officials has [01:03:00] come out, uh, today, the day we’re taping and. International federations, broadcasters, press and marketing partners will come out on April 30th.
Olympic family and workforce will come out the week of May 3rd.
Alison Brown: Here’s the short version prepared to get a lot of Q-tips up your nose,
Jill Jaracz: right?
Alison Brown: For everybody,
Jill Jaracz: right? You’re going to get tested every day athletes, whether you like it or not, you have to test a couple times and, and have negative tests. Before you come to Japan.
You have to show proof that you’re gotta have a negative test. You have to take a written pledge that you need to show immigration when you get there. Saying that you are complying with everything. Every national Olympic committee and Paralympic committee has to appoint a COVID liaison officer who is basically like your den mother, I think taking, or your class mom taking care of you the whole time.
Alison Brown: And nobody can, you know, eat on the bus. Nobody can miss their tests. I mean, this is, [01:04:00] they’re just gonna be every time they turn around, they’re gonna get tested again.
Jill Jaracz: Right. And you know, yeah, we understand you have to eat, but don’t eat anywhere else. But the village or the venue please, or get room service and they’re gonna have an app that’s gonna have, like, the dining room is full right now.
Don’t come down.
Alison Brown: It’s gonna, like, when you go to Disney world so much about the Olympics, I end up comparing to Disney world and it’s actually true. It’s kind of like that. What’s the wait time on this ride. And, and that’s how the they’re gonna have to run this very much. Like you run a Disney world vacation,
Jill Jaracz: you’re gonna, you’re gonna have your plan basically.
And everyone’s got their own COVID plan going on. And you, you stick with your plan and don’t necessarily mingle with other people
Alison Brown: do not deviate from the ride order. Do not any sidelines for Turkey legs. Do you, you go in the order of when you have your fast passes, I’m not that [01:05:00] worried about most of the athletes because they understand, you know, a training plan.
They understand you’ve gotta go by this schedule.
Jill Jaracz: That that’s very true. Cause I was I’m, I’m very worried that somebody’s gonna like Ryan Lochte yet.
Alison Brown: Ryan Lochte is who I’m worried about.
you know, or just sort of the, the superstar athletes, like the basketball players, you know, those guys who, who are superstars before they’re athletes.
Jill Jaracz: Right.
Alison Brown: That’s, who’s really the concern to me,
Jill Jaracz: right. To
Alison Brown: where this is not the biggest moment of their lives.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. And somebody who thinks the rules don’t apply to me necess and not saying that they do, but there, there are people who just are like the rules don’t apply to me.
Alison Brown: And the politicians who come or the, the corporate sponsor, people who come, who don’t get that, this is the biggest moment of a lot of these kids’ lives. Don’t screw it up for them.
Jill Jaracz: Exactly. And don’t screw it up for the hosts who are going through the ringer [01:06:00] of, I, I, that, when they released this information, that, cuz it came out today, they’re like 86 days to go.
And I’m like, this is the longest 86 days ever for you guys because it is nonstop criticism nonstop, canceled the games move. I like, I don’t understand how, why you don’t just push ’em back another year. Are you living in Florida? And you think that you can just put a games on in two months.
Alison Brown: So we got a barn let’s put on a show,
Jill Jaracz: right?
It’s gotta be very frustrating. And the numbers of COVID cases in Japan keep they are going up, but it’s, and, and I, I have this horribly American attitude because when they say, oh, we’ve had the most cases ever. And today the Kyodo news. 5,793 new cases in the country. And that’s just enormous. And I,
Alison Brown: and we’re like, that’s just a Thursday,
Jill Jaracz: right?
In one state, you know, depending on, on that. And, and the Japan time says only 1.1% of Japanese people have been [01:07:00] vaccinated. And I, I believe they are also starting with the, the older population first. So it is kind of concerning that that is slow going for them, but we still have 86 days. So by then more than one point, 1% of the population is going to be vaccinated.
There’s encouragement to get the vaccine when it’s appropriate for you. And I know that Australia has decided that their, their athletes are going to get vaccinated before they go to Tokyo. Some athletes in Canada have been vaccinated. We’ve seen on social media chef did be shown Marni McBean was eligible.
So she got her first shot, but, but there’s gonna be many other countries that don’t have the same privilege that somebody like in the United States, we’ve we we’re doing pretty well in getting people vaccinated. But I, I don’t know about some of these other countries, so it’ll [01:08:00] be tough. I hope that everyone sticks to their plan.
We’ve got some answers for Russia because of the controversy of them and, uh, not being able to compete under the Russian country. They’ve finally have chosen a national Anthem that’s gotten approved. So they’re using music from Chi Kowski, which I believe was used at, uh, skating world championships.
Alison Brown: Yes.
Jill Jaracz: That will be, uh, the replacement for the Russian national Anthem. They have a little controversy over their kit, which is heavily. Decorated in the Russian national colors of red, white,
Alison Brown: and also these shapes resemble the flag. Right. So it really looks like they’re wearing an artistic rendition of the Russian flag,
Jill Jaracz: but there is no flag on it,
Alison Brown: but there’s no flag.
Yeah. Okay. I have stars in stripes, but I’m not on, it’s not the American flag. I just like stars and Stripe
Jill Jaracz: mm-hmm the international Paralympic committee said that athletes and team officials are going to [01:09:00] use RPC as the acronym for Tokyo and Beijing. And that will include how they March in for the opening ceremonies.
They’ll March under RPC. They too will use the, the Kowski piano concerto. Number one, if you want to start listening to. So
Alison Brown: you can sing along.
Jill Jaracz: I, I actually want to hear how they used it because it’s like a long song. I, they have to be using a snippet,
Alison Brown: right. Because as we know, you can only have 30 seconds,
Jill Jaracz: right?
So
Alison Brown: of your national Anthem,
Jill Jaracz: some Japanese host towns are backing out of their role because it’s too expensive to put the precautions into place. So I’m not sure how that’s going to affect anybody. Everybody. There are some town that say, yes, we, we have relationships with these cities and countries already.
We’re going to maintain that and still figure out some way to do this kind of exchange. But that’s a little sad news. Uh, other sad news from the torch relay, uh, Kae Tanaka, the world’s [01:10:00] oldest living person at age 118 was supposed to carry the torch. She dropped out of the relay due to a rise in COVID cases in her prefecture.
The minchi news site said that she’s healthy and has a good appetite, but. But they don’t want to, uh, expose her to any possible coronavirus torch relay has had a case of COVID attached to it. An unnamed man in his thirties, tested positive after taking part in the torch relay what he did is unclear, but it happened in Sheku
Alison Brown: remember when, before COVID to cast your mind back and we were talking about the fan areas that would have all the flowers.
Jill Jaracz: Oh, right. Oh yeah.
Alison Brown: I just wanna think about that. Aw. When that was what we were talking about, that everyone was gonna stand and wait online to get into the events and be surrounded by flowers.
Jill Jaracz: I wonder if they’ll still have that?
Alison Brown: Well, [01:11:00] nobody’s gonna be waiting online.
Jill Jaracz: No, but I mean like maybe like by the athlete’s entrance, they can have some flowers for them.
It wouldn’t.
Alison Brown: I think they’re gonna make one for myself. so that when I’m walking into my viewing area, mm-hmm, , I’ll have a little flower arch.
Jill Jaracz: I like that idea. I’ve been trying to think of how to decorate the home media center, cherry
Alison Brown: blossoms,
Jill Jaracz: cherry blossoms. I want to make a, uh, uh, paper Mount Fuji. So I have that in background, on the wall.
Alison Brown: Some paper lanterns
Jill Jaracz: also could work and, and you know what else we forgot about? that this I inside the games reported Tokyo to host celebration marathon next year, to mark the Olympic and Paralympic legacy. And I immediately thought you moved. Th you moved the marathon. Why
Alison Brown: I know Tokyo gets the anniversary marathon, but not the real Olympic marathon.
Jill Jaracz: I totally forgot about that. Yeah. Teva said, why don’t you host one a year later?
Alison Brown: It’s like, yeah, we could host it a year later, [01:12:00] like this year for the actual Olympics, since it’s happening a year later than it should have.
Jill Jaracz: Right. Huh.
Alison Brown: That was the most bizarre announcement. So Tokyo is gonna be hosting this celebration.
I guess the idea being that so many things have gotten canceled for the Olympics that they want to have another event in Tokyo.
Theme Music: Mm-hmm
Alison Brown: that could be a large crowd event, but a marathon in Tokyo when you’ve actually moved the Olympic marathon so far north, just, and that Teebo was involved in this felt like such a slap in the face after that whole Marin Nove controversy.
Like he was gonna slip that in.
Theme Music: Right.
Alison Brown: and like, you’re all worried about COVID. So we’re gonna forget all about the Marin Nove and you know, the mayor of Japan of Tokyo was just saying you, you’re not just gonna run by and, and pretend you didn’t say what you just said. .
Jill Jaracz: But, Hey, it, it’s gonna run along the Paralympic marathon [01:13:00] course, and they’re gonna have it in autumn when they should be having it.
Anyway,
Alison Brown: I’ll throw flower petals at the runners. like a flower girl at a wedding. That actually would be really nice. If at the starting line, they threw flowers at thrower paddles at you.
Jill Jaracz: It does sound nice.
Alison Brown: I know people probably fall and have allergy deaths, but let’s just imagine the visual,
Jill Jaracz: right?
Alison Brown: The flower arch pedals going, let’s make it a real celebration.
Jill Jaracz: There you go. You know what else? To celebrate news from our shook Liston ministry of communications, who would like to remind you that we have a weekly newsletter that comes out on Tuesdays, and it has information that you will not get on the show. You can subscribe@flamealivepod.com. Scroll down to the bottom to the newsletter box because we don’t do popups
Alison Brown: because popups are awful.
Jill Jaracz: IOC has slipped this in too. It’s going to start [01:14:00] the first ever Olympic virtual series. So this is a partnership with five international sport federations, and it will be a Olympic licensed event for physical and non-physical virtual sports say
Alison Brown: that is this their way of slipping e-sports under my nose.
Jill Jaracz: It is, it definitely is so starts on may. 13 goes through June 23 and it will do, uh, virtual sport eSport and gaming. The sports involved will be E baseball, powerful pro baseball, 2020. The there’s going to be some cycling. There’s going to be rowing a virtual sailing regatta and then, uh, grand Tomo, uh, motor sports.
Alison Brown: But motor sports are not in the Olympics,
Jill Jaracz: but they are a recognized Federation.
Alison Brown: Okay. You know what [01:15:00] I’m gonna say? I’m going to surprise everyone. I’m going to say, I’m gonna take a look at this and I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt and then I’ll make fun of it.
Jill Jaracz: Well, we shall see, I mean, that’s coming up pretty quickly, so we’ll keep an eye.
Get in touch, and coming soon!
I’ll take a look. We’ll keep an eye on that. And I think that is going to wrap it up for this week. Let us know what you thought about Fox catcher.
Alison Brown: Email us at flame alive pod, gmail.com or call or text us at (208) 352-6348. That’s 0 2 0 8. Flame it we’re flame alive pod on Twitter and Insta and keep the flame alive podcast group on Facebook.
Jill Jaracz: Oh, you wanna join us next week? Because it’s mental health month in may and we have got boxer, Jean who’s. Sport and her struggles with O C D. It is a fascinating conversation as we go out to music by Archdale. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time, keep the flame alive [01:16:00]
Closing Music
Jason Bryant: two distinct stories that were wove together. So woven, wove words, problem.