For Mental Health Awareness Month, we welcome back Jenny Sichel to talk about her experiences with being an elite athlete while managing Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Jenny is a coxswain who competed with both able-bodied and para rowing crews. We talked with her about being misdiagnosed for years, the work that went into taking control of her condition, and how it affected her as an elite athlete.
You can learn more about OCD at the International OCD Foundation.
Also on this episode:
The Interntional Ski & Snowboard Federation had plenty of thoughts about how the Milano Cortina 2026 Winter Olympics went. Plus, the Milano Cortina Organizing Committee may have more budgetary issues with the ice hockey arena.
LA 2028 announced its Cultural Olympiad. We try to find the actual news within its press release, but we can tell you that there will be eight Olympic and eight Paralympic official LA28 Art Posters, as well as a “Sport on the Silver Screen” film series.
French Alps 2030 chose a venue in the Netherlands to host the speed skating events. Guess how far away that is from everything else (it’s far).
The International Olympic Committee Executive Board met recently, and President Kirsty Coventry is getting the organization “Fit for the Future.” We delve into all the ways you could see change at upcoming Games, whether the Youth Olympic Games will return, and if anyone at the IOC knows how a sport gets onto the Olympic program.
In news from Team Keep the Flame Alive, we hear from:
- Fencers Miles Chamley-Watson, Lee Kiefer, Maia Chamberlain, Alexander Massialas and Kat Holmes
- Former luger Maura Grogan
- Former figure skater Gracie Gold
- Filmmaker George Hirthler – to get tickets to “The Games in Black & White,” visit TaraAtlanta’s website.
Thanks so much for listening, and until next time, keep the flame alive!
Photo courtesy of Jenny Sichel.
TRANSCRIPT
Note: This is an uncorrected machine-generated transcript and may contain errors. Please check its accuracy against the audio. Do not quote from the transcript; use the audio as the record of note.
436-Jenny Sichel on athletes’ mental health and having OCD
Theme Music:
Jill Jaracz: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Keep the Flame Alive, the podcast for fans of the Olympics and Paralympics. If you love the games, we are the show for you. I am your host, Jill Jaracz, joined as always by my lovely co-host, Alison Brown.
Alison, hello. How are you? I am very well. How are you doing?
A personal update
Jill Jaracz: I’m back at home. That’s all I can say. It’s [00:01:00] been a long, long couple of years dealing with parental healthcare. So- It’s what happens … last year, you know, last year my mother was supposed to have eye surgery. Yeah. She ended up in the hospital for many days, and I was in Indiana for about seven weeks taking care of some other health issues that popped up.
This year she got the eye surgery she wanted. She was not giving up on that eye surgery. But no, she was not, so good for her, and that went really well. And then she ran into the dishwasher and [00:01:30] gouged her, cut her leg open, and that has been a, a big issue. So that caused me to stay for another couple of extra weeks.
Alison Brown: It isn’t funny, but it is- No … it, it is funny because- Yes … it’s one of those quirky accidents where we hear about this from athletes all the time. I remember there was a, I want to say a hockey player who fell through a glass top table and, like, taking pictures of his kid. Like, there’s these really bizarre [00:02:00] accidents that happen that are just part of life.
Yes. Yes. And, and we hear about it all the time. It’s like, “Oh no, it’s your c-” but that’s, you know, things happen, and it’s not fun to have to deal with when things happen.
Jill Jaracz: No. But, uh, she is doing well, on the mend enough to take care of her own wound care. Excellent. And, uh, that is exciting, so very happy about that.
Thank you, Listener Erica!
Jill Jaracz: I, before I forget, a massive thank you to, and shout-out to listener Erica, who this is in the mail for [00:02:30] you coming soon. Oh, no. She sent us what she made for her, crafting, uh, Olympics during Milano Cortina 2026. Oh. Uh, she and her friend- And she- … friends do a crafts fair
Alison Brown: Sorry. She had sent us something from Paris that I still use, I will say.
Yes. Yes. The, the flip-flop keychain. Yes. I still use that on, on one of my sets of keys. Yes. So I’m excited to see this.
Jill Jaracz: So this is a little crocheted k- it’s also a keychain. It’s a little crocheted, curling stone [00:03:00] with a little smiley face, and I gotta tell you, it rivals those jelly cat curling stuffed plushies that we saw in the store in Milano Cortina.
Erica, thank you so much. This, uh- Oh … well, this will not get used as a keychain. It, it gets to sit and keep me company at my desk. And smile at you. And smile at me. It is adorable. So we appreciate you and all you, all you do for the show in making us laugh.
Paralympian Jenny Sichel on Managing OCD
Jill Jaracz: today we welcome Jenny Sichel back to the program.
As you may remember Jenny from our [00:03:30] conversation with her and Jason Belnicky about Athletes for Hope, which is an organization that connects athletes with mentoring programs and public speaking opportunities to have a positive impact on youth and communities. We talked to them last year, last, like last fall, we, we aired those shows.
And talking with Jenny had the potential to send us on many tangents, so we set up another interview with her, which we had on August 20- which we had on August 20th, 2025. And[00:04:00]
it’s a fantastic two-parter that is incredibly fascinating. We saved part one for Mental Health Awareness Month. Jenny, who is a Paralympic silver medalist, she has competed as a coxswain in rowing for both able-bodied and para boats. She also has obsessive cal- compulsive disorder, and we talked with her about being misdiagnosed for years, the work that went into taking control of her condition, and how it affected her as an elite athlete.
Take a [00:04:30] listen.
How OCD manifested for Jenny Sichel
Jill Jaracz: Okay. Let’s talk about OCD mental health. Yeah. How did your OCD manifest itself to you? Like when were you aware that this was part of your life?
Jenny Sichel: I would say it started when I was in fifth grade, except I was misdiagnosed for 11 years.
Alison Brown: Did you have a lot of diagnosis or just a wrong one?
Jenny Sichel: I had a wrong one.
Alison Brown: Okay. So what was the wrong one?
Jenny Sichel: I was, [00:05:00] uh, diagnosed as generalized anxiety disorder, and so I actually did take meds initially, like through, I wanna say like sophomore year of high school, and I would go see a psychiatrist every week.
And so like, it was under control. It just wasn’t necessarily exactly what it needed to be.
Alison Brown: Right, because a lot of the meds for OCD and, and gather the same. Yes. And a lot of the treatment is the same. Yes. [00:05:30] Yeah. But with like mm-hmm. The wrong level of spice.
Jenny Sichel: Yes. So I was just about to say that because when I was finally, so in college, my freshman year, I was considered the weird one on the hall, like to the point where a senior year came and I saw an open seat at people that I had spoken with, like had lived on the hall with freshman year, they were all still friends.
And I was like, oh, I haven’t talked to ’em in age. I was like, and at this point, fully like under control, knew what [00:06:00] was going on and walk up to the table and I go, oh, hey guys, like I haven’t seen you in ages. Do you mind if I sit and hang out for dinner? And they were like, um, there’s no open seats.
So I was definitely the weird one on the hall at my freshman year, for better or worse. But sophomore year came and I told my parents, I was like, I’m something’s wrong. I need to speak to someone. And ended up speaking with a psychiatrist who then diagnosed me with [00:06:30] OCD. And, uh, once I started getting treated for OCD, which is obsessive compulsive disorder.
I know we’ve been using the acronym, I just wanna be sure it’s out there. But when we, when I finally got diagnosed with that, so I stayed on the same med, I doubled the dosage of it, which is the treatment for OCD. It is doubled the dosage of the med. Same type of like cognitive behavioral therapy. And then I went on one other small, small dose of another med.
And between all of that, [00:07:00] like. Totally in control. Now, do I still have obsessive thoughts? Yes, a hundred percent every day. I often will find myself actually, I often obsess about the negative things that have happened to me in rowing, and what I could have done better or what I could have changed.
And it will just like keep going, constantly obsessing, constantly increasing my anxiety. I have tactics now to be able to stop that when I realize it’s happening, but it still affects me every day. [00:07:30] And I think that now it’s just the intrusive thoughts. I used to do the compulsions with it. It used to manifest itself as I would get these intrusive thoughts.
They would cause anxiety, and I would do the compulsion to decrease the anxiety. So like, for example, I would say, uh oh. Uh, the intrusive thought would be I just saw this person who I labeled as bad. I’m gonna die would be the intrusive thought because I saw that person labeled as bad. If I touch [00:08:00] anything that they touch.
So I, let’s say I touch the same book as them, I’m going to die. And then the compulsion would be, I need to wash my hand or just wet my hand. If I wet my hand, I’m not gonna die. I’m gonna be fine. I’m rid of all of that germ so as soon as I would wet my hand, all the anxiety would disappear and I would move on.
But what I learned along the way is that anxiety is like a bell curve. It goes up, it hits a peak, and it comes down. And with OCD, you have these [00:08:30] intrusive thoughts causing this anxiety. The compulsion, you actually stop the anxiety before it hits the peak of the bell curve. And so the peak keeps increasing and increasing, increasing after the compulsion, after you do multiple compulsions.
And so you never actually see the peak. So it becomes a bigger and bigger and bigger deal when the anxiety comes back. And so you keep doing the compulsion, just like a vicious cycle. So what you have to do to break that is ride out the anxiety and realize that there’s [00:09:00] another side to the anxiety bell curve.
And so through that, and then the meds, which kind of help make you feel stronger in a way. It’s kind of like when you’re weightlifting and you put on a weightlifting belt, you feel more solid to be able to combat those intrusive thoughts and that compulsion. So that’s kind of like a little bit about how it manifested myself.
The different types of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder
Jenny Sichel: I have contamination based OCD, which it mostly has to do with germs and not germs like [00:09:30] you would necessarily like. Yes, like cold virus germs. But then also, oh, I see a black dot on something that has a germ on it. Or Oh, you know, Allison’s touched this. If I touch that I’m gonna get Allison’s cooties kind of thing.
So that’s kind of the way, and I have a little bit of other, there are different types of OCD. I have a little bit of the other ones like religious based OCDI used to have where I had to go to church every single Sunday or I was gonna go to hell. Um, where it was like, but it was like, it wasn’t just that normal, [00:10:00] it was like during the week I’d be like thinking about it and like obsessing over it and causing me anxiety and the only way to survive it was to go to church.
So is definitely been a journey. And it’s definitely affected me in sports too. But I don’t know. I like who I am, so I wouldn’t have it any other way. Like would I not want the OCD? Yeah, that’d be great to not have to constantly like obsess over things. But then I also don’t think I’d be who I am.
How OCD affected Jenny Sichel’s athletic career
Alison Brown: How did it [00:10:30] affect you in sports?
Jenny Sichel: It increased my levels of anxiety, specifically around national team and trying out for stuff. And I mean, there was one time when I actually was at a selection camp and was so wildly anxious that I was going on like a fast, fast walk every single morning to get the anxiety out.
And it [00:11:00] was all about obsessive thoughts, like, am I good enough? Am I gonna do this? Am like, oh gosh, if I but like intrusive thoughts, like I’m not, oh, I stepped on a crack yesterday, I’m not gonna be able to perform today. So thoughts that don’t make sense but cause you anxiety anyways. And then it was to the point at the selection camp that I actually shut down during selection camp because the anxiety levels were so high that I actually like shut down, which basically, uh, reflected [00:11:30] as me just being uber calm.
But it was actually me just like, it’s not worth it. Like, uh, why am I doing this? Like, why I can’t, I can’t do this anymore. I’m just gonna shut down. And I walked out of that selection camp and nobody knew about my mental health disability at this time. And I walked out of that selection camp and the coach goes, Hey, I don’t know what you did this selection camp, but you were great.
You were so relaxed. And I was like, if only you had any clue. And so [00:12:00] like in that sense and that stigma and. Just the unknown. It’s definitely affected me in 2012, I think it was, I actually disclosed to the coach that I had OCD, uh, at the time, and then didn’t make the boat. Whether or not those were one of the same or affected, I don’t know, but it felt like it.
And so I never told anyone after that until after I retire. And having to keep that secret, like is really, really hard and takes a [00:12:30] toll on you mentally and physically. And so oftentimes you’re just exhausted and for no reason other than the fact that your brain’s been going nonstop, constantly trying to battle the anxiety.
And so physically it manifested itself too. So what I’ve been trying to do now is raise that awareness around mental health and sports and athletics, and get the training for coaches. To be able to create that culture and environment that people feel safe [00:13:00] opening up about or aren’t concerned that if they, uh, don’t hide their mental health or if they speak about their mental health, they’re gonna get cut from the team.
Because if anything, it’s just like treating it, it’s kind of like treating a physical ailment too, in the sense that when you treat a physical ailment and get better from that, you’re a better athlete. When you treat your mental health and get better from that, you are a much better athlete. So, [00:13:30] uh, in that sense, like I would say negative has turned into a positive and how can we make this, reframe this.
But then I think also, like my OCD part of it is I’m uber competitive and I’m very meticulous with what I do. And so I think that actually helped me in a way get to the level that I was at and that I got to. So it’s like a give and take there.
How the public misunderstands OCD
Alison Brown: OCD is very misunderstood. Mm-hmm. By the general public.
What’s one a, what’s the one aspect of that that [00:14:00] irritates you the most?
Jenny Sichel: I love to hate when people say, I’m so OCD about this, which I’m sure you knew I was gonna say, but like when, I love to hate that and I love it when people say that because I was like, if you only knew, bless. But then I also hate it because I’m like, you have no effing clue, like what someone that has OCD goes through.
It’s not just like color [00:14:30] coding the books on my bookshelf in my background, that’s not OCD. That’s because I like things being pretty, like, it’s like I don’t have to shift the position of that book. It’s like some people with OCD do, but I don’t have that type of OC. I’m probably one of the messiest people.
I know you can’t see the rest of my background here, but it is hot Mess express. And so it’s like having that preconceived notion and then just kind of like, I don’t know, making it seem so simple like, ugh, I’m [00:15:00] so OCD about this. And yeah, I say it lightly, but people actually say that a lot and you’re like, are you though?
Or is it just like you just actually like organization or you know, you saw a piece of garbage on your desk and you wanted to throw it away, or is it actually causing you anxiety to the point where throwing it away is the only way that you’re gonna get rid of that anxiety And if you don’t throw it away, something else [00:15:30] bad will happen.
So. That’s probably my biggest pet peeve with OCD specifically.
How the public misunderstands mental health in sports
Alison Brown: What about mental health in sports?
Jenny Sichel: I think with mental health in sports, my biggest peeve is the lack of knowledge and that people have, because I think once people become educated about the value of bringing mental health culture into a team, we will only see [00:16:00] sports grow in competitiveness. And how, I mean, this could go for team USA too, like how, uh, many medals we get, how fast athletes are, how competitive against other athletes they are.
Because when you’re in a good space, mentally you’re gonna be in a great space competition wise. But if you’re not and it’s not spoken about and you have that sort of like, I don’t know, negativity surrounding it, [00:16:30] you’re not going to necessarily perform to the top level that you could be or that you should be.
So I think that’s probably my biggest peeve is just the lack of knowledge surrounding mental health in sports and the stigma associated with it.
How is society doing at accepting mental health issues?
Jill Jaracz: With Tokyo Mental Health came to the forefront, which is a good shift, but are we, as the pandemic fades and people forget how tough it was mentally, are we still like, as a society, [00:17:00] doing a good job of keeping mental health?
In an important space,
Jenny Sichel: I think better than we were 10 years ago. But I also think that the power of the Olympics and Paralympics is that challenges, societal challenges are brought to the forefront, but it’s only when the games are actually happening after the games end. Where does that all go? Like how often were you hearing about Simone [00:17:30] Biles and mental health during the Olympics?
How often when Michael Phelps was performing, did you hear about Michael Phelps? And these are only two athletes out of how many, why aren’t we hearing more about this? And it doesn’t just end when the Olympics ends. It’s not like all of a sudden, oh my Ooc D’s gone, the Olympics is over. Uh, no. It’s like this is an ongoing thing for so many athletes and people in general.
[00:18:00] So I think we can do a much better job about just reframing the way we’re thinking about this to, in the sense that it doesn’t just end when the Olympic sentence or Paralympic end, it’s not just gone. It’s still here. So why do we only talk about it once every two years?
Managing OCD and flare-ups
Alison Brown: Or that a lot of these issues have a cure. You know, so often in, in the media, somebody has a depressive episode and then they’re cured [00:18:30] and oc, you know, and so many of these things are forever. Yeah, they’re managed. They’re like diabetes. Yes. You manage it. Yes.
Jenny Sichel: Yeah. I don’t say I don’t have OCD anymore. I say I’m under control.
My OCD is under control. And, uh, there’s a big difference there because it still affects me every single day. It’s just I now have tactics and, uh, the right meds to be able to manage my OCD [00:19:00] to the point where it’s not taking over my life anymore. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t still have a chemical imbalance in my brain.
Like I’m always gonna have that. I was born with it. Like, it’s kind of like my eczema. I’m always gonna have that eczema. My eczema hasn’t been cured. It’s just under control. And sometimes you have flareups and, uh, sometimes I have OCD flareups and, uh, I talk to my psychiatrist and we say, okay, uh, maybe [00:19:30] start taking this other med a little bit more often until for the next two weeks to get this flareup under control.
And then, uh, start weaning off. That meant a little bit more back toward the dosage that you’re currently at. And often my flare-ups will come around. Stress. Stress is a major trigger for my OCD, so that’s also why competition, not competition so much. But selection camp was the hardest for me ’cause that was the highest stress.
So, you know, stress a trigger. Let me go do the most stressful thing in the world. One of the most stressful things in the [00:20:00] world. As one does.
Jill Jaracz: It has to be exhausting in a way because if you’re in the stress of selection camp and then you have a flare up, do you ever sleep in those situations?
Jenny Sichel: Oh, I sleep a lot.
Do you? Okay. Sleep is not one of the things that I have trouble with. And actually my, you can ask my parents, they probably say, my mantra is, I’m so tired. And, uh, when I first started, like really feeling tired and it’s not like chronic [00:20:30] fatigue. I’m not always tired. It’s just after I have an anxiety period, I’m often more tired than I would be had I not had an anxiety period or after I’ve been obsessing about something.
I use all of that brain power on obsessing about this and calming my anxiety back down that it does get me a little more tired or fatigued than someone who might not have OCD. And so, uh, like my mantra is definitely I’m so tired, uh, [00:21:00] but at the same time, like it’s also not, now that it’s under control, it’s not like taking over my life with fatigue or anything like that.
and it’s at normal levels for the most part. It’s just like when you do have a flare up, it is more exhausting. So it’s just, managing it all. It’s like I am figuring it out along the way.
Alison Brown: Disassociation, you’re cure for insomnia.
Jenny Sichel: It’s so funny though because like [00:21:30] that’s one thing that like I don’t actually have trouble with is sleeping at night or anything like that.
Now that I say that I’m gonna start obsessing about it, I’m gonna be like, why aren’t you getting to sleep, Jenny? Why aren’t you getting to sleep? I’ve totally done that in the past, but it’s not something that I generally have trouble with or napping during the day. Like I’m fine with that. I probably do it more so and need to do it more so than someone who might not have OCD.
I don’t know if that’s medically legitimate or not, but I’m gonna say for me, it works for [00:22:00] me.
Athletes and mental health today
Jill Jaracz: When you work with athletes today,
how does mental health come into the conversation? Does it come into the conversation?
Jenny Sichel: Yeah, I, uh, really try to, I’m not saying that it always, like I’m perfect at anything or the best at anything, but I try to create a safe space for athletes to talk about anything. I think that having and I, [00:22:30] having that open space for athletes to discuss or voice how they’re feeling is so crucial.
But then I also try to lead by example too. And if I am coxing in a boat or downhill, I do downhill ski racing in the winter, or even I do, I perform improv now. When I’m nervous, I’ll actually say, Hey, you know, I’m a little nervous. It’s like I’m feeling it right now. It’s a good kind of nerves, but I think it’s really [00:23:00] like.
I’m a little nervous and then other people are like, oh, me too. Like blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden it opens up this space where now all of a sudden we’re gonna be able to perform even better because we’re all on the same page and we’re all like, no, actually it’s gonna be okay. Instead of keeping it to yourself and worrying about it.
And so I think by both leading by example and being open to, uh, other perspectives and thoughts and not jumping on them, being like, no, that’s wrong, [00:23:30] or, oh, that’s so unhealthy. We need to get you out of your asap. It’s like just understanding, being a little more empathetic to athletes and to other people makes such a difference.
Jill Jaracz: Excellent Thank you Jenny Sichel for coming on and talking about mental health and sports with us. it was a fascinating switch to see mental health come into play during Tokyo and it’s now we’re seeing the aftermath and I am, I’m very curious how much the support, especially financially and [00:24:00] time-wise will be there, continue to be there and if it’s, you know, will it stick?
Yeah. So hopefully it will. But thank you so much for coming on and chatting with us. It’s always great to talk to you.
Jenny Sichel: Thank you so much for having me. This was fantastic and so much fun to chat.
Jill Jaracz: Thank you so much, Jenny. You can follow Jenny on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. We’ll have links to those in the show notes. You can also learn more about obsessive compulsive disorder at the International OCD Foundation. [00:24:30] That’s IOCDF, as in Frank, .org, which is kind of convenient considering that we talk about the IOC.
That’s, all you gotta remember is two extra letters, people. So if, if you need to learn more, um, that’s an incredible resource, iocdf.org. And we will have part two of our conversation with Jenny in a couple episodes where we will answer all the questions you have about being a coxswain, and many that you did not know you had.
[00:25:00] But it is a, an awesome interview. J- Jenny shared with us just how vital that role is in a boat, and if you don’t know about, a ton about rowing, this will give you a completely different perspective on and appreciation for the sport. And, and you will learn what Jenny carries in her coxswain bag. Which is a thing we didn’t even know existed.
Alison Brown: We didn’t. It was one of those interviews, and, and we’ve had a few of these, but this one was particular where it was one question really led to 10 others.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah.
Alison Brown: And it was a lot of fun. And of course Jenny’s [00:25:30] fantastic, so that- Yes … always helps.
Jill Jaracz: So be sure to tune in for that.
Milano Cortina 2026 News
Thoughts from the International Ski and Snowboard Federation
Jill Jaracz: Andiamo a sciare. Oh boy, we have some, uh, Milano Cortina news, the International Ski and Snowboard Federation had its spring technical committee meetings, and they had some thoughts about Milano Cortina in 2026, so. And not all of them were bad thoughts.
No. No, not all were bad. So in terms of legacy [00:26:00] stuff, uh, Alpine’s going back to Bormio for, for men’s World Cup, and Cortina for women’s World Cup, uh, both before Christmas in the 2026-2027 season. So that is very good. Uh, potentially coming down the line, this is awesome, paracross country skiing is, wants to introduce a team sprint and skiathlon events for next year’s World Cup season.
Which means maybe, maybe not for 2030, but maybe for 2034 we could see that sport, uh, [00:26:30] expanded for the Paralympics, which would be really cool. the Park and Pipe subcommittee, which covers slopestyle, Big Air, and halfpipe, had a lot of conversations about Milano Cortina 2026. And they were really excited about the digital growth and interest in the sports of this group.
But they said not being able to test the venues at Livigno before the games was a big problem. And- You think? Y- yeah. And, [00:27:00] again, I’m really sad we did not get there, and we did not have, like, the bandwidth to really pay attention to what was going on up there in terms of, like, behind the scenes stuff, and understanding, what, what is really going on.
Because you have to trust that the media coverage is doing that. And, uh, if what you see on digital stuff, a lot of it, it’s all curated. Milano Cortina’s gonna show you the best. The f- federations are gonna show you the best. The NOCs are gonna show you , the best stuff.
They’re [00:27:30] not gonna talk about what’s really going on. They’re gonna save it for the committee meeting later.
Alison Brown: And reporters are limited to what they can film and what they can show- Right … at the actual venues. You know, we can’t take video when- Yeah … we’re in the venue. So all the people who would give us possibly, you know, “This thing isn’t working very well,” they can talk about it, but that’s hard to do Or that’s hard for us to keep up with when we’re then doing our own coverage.
Jill Jaracz: Right. Right, right. [00:28:00] so the FIS did acknowledge that the course builders, course crews, and organizers on the ground did do their best during the games. But due to delays in getting the venues done, the crews really felt it during competition. And, here’s a quote, “Unfortunately, as seen most clearly in the free ski and snowboard slopestyle competitions in Livigno, the challenges presented by that venue translated to challenges for the Olympians on hand, affecting performance on the world’s [00:28:30] biggest sporting stage.”
End quote. Mm. And that is from their, technical meeting article that they posted on, the federation website. So all stakeholder groups at that technical meeting, which included athlete reps, were, quote, “In full agreement that such a situation cannot and will not occur again at such critical junctures.”
End quote. And it, I think this is more than just it snowed a lot.
Alison Brown: Right. This was, there was real technical problems with the course [00:29:00] itself. So- That didn’t get discovered until the Olympics are happening, and then you can’t really do much about it- Right … ’cause you can’t change the course literally mid-run.
Jill Jaracz: Right. freestyle skiing which is moguls and aerials, they had nothing but good things to say about Livigno and the Olympics, and said the new dual moguls event was a big success. And snowboard cross also said Livigno did a good job even though snow was an issue. But test events would have been helpful.
read between the lines on that. and listeners, if [00:29:30] you liked the onboard goggle cams that they had during the snowboard cross races, that pilot program is being expanded, so you will probably see more of that in the future.
Alison Brown: Can I just say I love the idea of a park and pipe subcommittee?
Jill Jaracz: I know. I was just like, “Ooh, FIS, you’re really telling us some stuff. Thank you.”
Alison Brown: No, but it’s true. I’m, I’m glad that they were very public about this, that they’re not, sweeping this under the rug and saying, “Oh, it was [00:30:00] the Olympics. Everything was great.” there were problems. This is what we’re gonna do about it, and we’re not gonna let this happen again to the athletes.
Which- Yes.
Jill Jaracz: Yes … as we
Alison Brown: talk about a million times a day, it’s all about the athletes and, and their experience.
Milano Cortina’s deficit woes
Jill Jaracz: Franck Xu had a pretty scathing article, at least by Google Translate standards, so keep that in mind, about Milano Cortina’s announced deficit. Franck Xu reports that Milano Cortina had 56 [00:30:30] partnerships, but had the lowest sponsorship revenue for a Winter Olympics since Torino 2006.
It also said- I see a connection there. I know, I know. It also said that Italy’s Court of Auditors is investigating the cost overruns of the Santa Giulia arena, which was budgeted at 177 million euros. It’s rumored that costs could be as much as 320 million now, and it doesn’t help that revenues were 80 million lower than ex- [00:31:00] anticipated because they lost 2,500 seats in the hockey venue because it gon- didn’t get done.
So all of those games were lost revenue.
Alison Brown: Right, ’cause there was that whole section that was just temporary seating, which didn’t have the second tier.
Jill Jaracz: Yes, yes. the other big problem was the lack of restocking Milo and Tinas, which were almost immediately sold out. Which is also true. We were just amazed, well, not amazed that they sold out, ’cause they were adorable mascots, but we were [00:31:30] amazed that Milano Cortina did not have the foresight to think that these would sell out.
Alison Brown: And that they weren’t producing them and getting ready and-
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. To, to- It didn’t make any
Alison Brown: sense …
Jill Jaracz: to not be able to buy the mascot for the Paralympics during the Paralympics was a big problem. And if you sold out, I mean, like you had probably a good month to try to get stuff in.
Alison Brown: Right, because they sold out of the mascots within the first few days of the Olympics, and all the [00:32:00] signs were going up in the store.
Mm-hmm. “No mascot, no mascot, no mascot.” You had some time to get things squared away before the Paralympics, before any of those stores closed. You know, all those pop-up shops were still there, and s- they didn’t get it together for that.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah, which is, not great, not great. Not very Olympic. If you wanna see the best of the best, not very Olympic.
LA2028 News
Cultural Olympiad announced
Jill Jaracz: We have some news from LA 2028, which announced its [00:32:30] cultural Olympiad, but that announcement was really light on details.
Alison Brown: Yeah, I skimmed this and said, “Am I missing something?”
Jill Jaracz: Y- yeah, yeah, yeah. So they said they’re building it from the community level up, and will have a program that spans fashion, film, food, music, performance, and visual art.
The one concrete thing we know is that there will be 16 official LA 2028 art posters, eight for the Olympics, eight for the Paralympics. They will be created by [00:33:00] local artists, and they will go through a juried process, and public unveiling is set for July 2027. Perhaps with one year to go. Don’t know.
Which would make sense. But they said, you know, that makes sense. There will be an official cultural Olympiad mark To recognize and promote and connect cultural organizations, and that kind of makes it sound like they’re gonna get, you know, if you’re, I’m a cultural organization, I can get the LA28 Cultural [00:33:30] Olympiad seal of approval.
Kind of like the royal seal?
I guess. there wasn’t much said what this was and what the benefits were, but you can apply if you’re an organization. You can apply in early 2027. concrete, there will be a Sport on the Silver Screen film series with free screenings of 28 sports films throughout the city at some point.
Don’t quite know. And then in January 2028, it, there will be a Cultural Olympiad calendar and [00:34:00] mapping platform launching, and that’s gonna be a digital calendar of everything going on in terms of the Cultural Olympiad. Uh, the good news is that they have secured some underwriting, so many events will have discounted or even free tickets or entrance t- entrance fees if it’s, like, a museum or something.
programming is supposed to cover not just the LA area, but also LA28 venue cities and LA28 national activations. So [00:34:30] not quite sure. I’m, I’m guessing there’s gonna be a Oklahoma City aspect to this. not quite sure how venue cities goes in terms of, like, including the football stadiums.
‘Cause that’s every city.
That’s, like, the
Alison Brown: entire country. But no, I’m glad about the underwriting, and maybe that’s related to the seal, that you can get the seal and they’ll be involved in these, in the ticketing discounts and, and pieces like that. But yeah, you, you wanna see a good, active Cultural Olympiad, ’cause as [00:35:00] we discovered, especially in Paris, some really fantastic events were related to the Cultural Olympiad, and not something that we had experienced, I don’t think.
Uh, certainly not in Beijing because there was no, there was no getting out of the bubble. but Paris did such a fantastic job of including that and making it part of the feeling of the city. So good on you, LA, to be at least thinking and working on this at this point. Right. Right, right.
French Alps 2030
Speedskating venue to be in the Netherlands
Alison Brown: [00:35:30] Patinage de vitesse.
Jill Jaracz: Uh, France Jus, again, reporting, and hat tip for Rich Pearlman at the Sports Examiner for pointing this out, French Alps 2030 wants to put speed skating in the Netherlands. they say there’s no available site in the French Alps region for a speed skating track and, arena. So they want to hold them in, Heerenveen in the Netherlands at the Thialf, which is a 12,500-seat speed skating venue.[00:36:00]
So, you know it’s gonna be packed with Dutch people, which, lucky for them. As, as you will. Yes. They’ve hosted the world championships 23 times, so good venue choice. It’s nowhere. It’s in the middle of– It– You can’t get to it. If you wanted to go from Nice to Heerenveen, it’s a 16-hour drive. Oh. Uh- And that’s probably the only way to do it. Yeah, pretty much. I [00:36:30] mean, It’s an hour and a half away from Amsterdam. Oh. Driving. It’s a lit- it’s a little under two hours if you took a train from Amsterdam. But it, it really is kind of around this bay on the other side from Amsterdam. So it’s, it’s kind of hard to get to if you wanted to, uh, travel there. Just, you know, fly in.
You’d have to fly to Amsterdam and drive to this. So there is no– This makes, [00:37:00] uh, French Alps really along the lines of Milan-Cortina 2026- Mm-hmm … in terms of spread out and making it difficult for NOCs and media and any other stakeholders that want to be in multiple places and don’t have the resources to do that.
it’ll be great. It’ll be a great venue. It’ll be full. And it’s not- Oh, no doubt … and it’s not like the, the- speed skating in Italy wasn’t full of Dutch people because audiences were [00:37:30] mostly Dutch. So that, that I don’t think is gonna be the issue. It’s just that it’s, it’s not, it’s not gonna be– it’s gonna be another
Alison Brown: World Cup feel.
It’s not gonna feel like– At least in Milan-Cortina, you had the hockey venue that was right there. And for fans- Right … they would– I mean, I know some fans did two-a-days where they did a hockey- Mm-hmm … game and speed skating. And also just being in that spot was one of the only spots it felt very Olympic because you had multiple events happening at the same times.
You had multiple groups [00:38:00] of, uh, fans coming in and out. So you knew all the people with their orange gear were going to this event, and all the people with the American flags were going to hockey. So that is lost when you just- Yes … stick it 16 hours away. But French Alps already has this problem.
Jill Jaracz: Right.
Right. And it, it’s just gonna be a tough Games all around. It’s gonna be like Milano-Cortina, but I think even less focused. Maybe not. Maybe I’m wrong about that. [00:38:30] But I, I’m not too hopeful. We’ll find out more from them in June because there are more IOC meetings, and they have to present and have their venues finalized by then.
Alison Brown: We’ll see.
International Olympic Committee News
President Coventry’s agenda
Jill Jaracz: Speaking of the IOC. Exactly. The International Olympic Committee executive board met last week. And, uh, like how Tiboc had Agenda 2020 and Agenda 2020 plus five, uh, [00:39:00] Kirstie Coventry’s got her platform, and it’s called Fit for the Future. And she’s gonna get the IOC into shape. Yeah, she’s not fooling around.
It’s, it’s kind of fun
Alison Brown: to watch her. It’s been fun watching her at the podium. Yeah. Yeah. You know, over the past few months, just seeing she’s really not fooling around and, and, and coming into her own very quickly. Yes. Which is exciting to watch.
Youth Olympic Games 2030 on hold
Jill Jaracz: Yes. So the Fit for the Future has five pillars with different working groups.
the first one is [00:39:30] athletes. It’s the protection of the female category. We’ve talked about that because they came out with their decision so far. the second, pillar is Olympic Games, so that talks about the Youth Olympic Games, the Olympic Games program, the Olympic Qualifier Series, and Olympic Games delivery.
And Youth Olympic Games 2030 is on hold. They were supposed to vote on a city this year. They are putting that one on hold. Uh, the IOC has done a lot of surveying of international federations and National Olympic Committees. [00:40:00] I think Kirstie Coventry’s also big on a survey.
Alison Brown: She loves a survey. But you know what?
A sur- it makes sense that she’s big on a survey because that’s how you get the voices of the smaller federations.
Jill Jaracz: Yes.
Alison Brown: You know, y- they have equal voice when you’re looking at a piece of paper.
Jill Jaracz: Yes. they have gotten inconclusive feedback from that, so they’re putting the Youth Olympic Games on pause to think why they’re even doing it.
And they wanna figure out, what is the best [00:40:30] way for the IOC to engage with youth, and right now, the Youth Olympic Games is not answering enough of those questions. So they’re not sure if it’s a good path, if it’s really engaging youth in the right way. I thought was very interesting.
We are not just gonna keep moving forward just because the ship is going in that direction. So, uh, Dakar 2026 and Northern Italy 2028 will still happen, but beyond that is up in the air.
I kind of wonder, like, how [00:41:00] much of it is, “Hey, we’re spending a lot of money on this.” Is it- I don’t know if they saw, is it a pathway? ‘Cause we have ta- we have noticed this year especially more– We’ve noticed that many athletes have been Youth Olympic Games participants in a way that I haven’t noticed before, but it’s not like they promote, uh, that very much.
Alison Brown: No, they talk about it briefly, but they more talk about it when it’s the Youth Olympic Games time as [00:41:30] into, “Oh, these people then went on to the Olympic Games,” rather than at the Olympic Games talking about- Mm-hmm … who competed at, at the Youth Olympic Games.
Jill Jaracz: Right. And it– I bet it’s just expensive, you know, National Olympic Committees- Oh, sure
and federations. I’m sure– I mean, like, Northern Italy’s gonna reuse venues, so that’s nice, but is that the best way to, to reuse them? Who knows? but I’m sure that there is a lot of like, “Well, we gotta put a lot of money into this.” And [00:42:00] when- Audiences may not pay attention. what good is it?
Thank you, IOC Esports Commission
Jill Jaracz: In the same vein, the Esports Commission has been thanked. I love that.
Alison Brown: Thanked and dismissed.
Jill Jaracz: Yes. We, they have to figure out how and if esports fits into the future of Olympics, and you said it best the other week that esports isn’t totally gone, but the IOC is looking at their core businesses and seeing how esports fits into that.
Alison Brown: and that [00:42:30] goes back to the Youth Olympic Games as well. It’s always gotta feed into your main product.
Jill Jaracz: Yes. So any other further details will, will be down the road. They’re kicking that can down the road. But I would not expect them to make a comeback at all. The Olympic qualif- One and done.
The Olympic Qualifier Series returns for 2028
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. The Olympic Qualifier Series is back and revamped for 2028. So this happened ahead of Paris 2024 and was like, if you remember, it was two festival type events in Shanghai and Budapest, and those were Olympic [00:43:00] qualifiers for some of the newer sports on the Olympic program.
They’ve renamed it. It’s gonna be called the Q Series, and it’s been expanded to four cities that will have a, a May to June 2028 run. So again, qualifying for the games right before the games. Uh, it will start in Tokyo on May 4 through 7, go to Shanghai May 11 through 14, then it’s Montreal June 1 through 4, and Orlando June 8 through 11, so Orlando, Florida.
[00:43:30] six sports will be part of the Q Series. They are 3×3 basketball, beach volleyball, BMX freestyle, climbing, flag football, skateboarding. And direct quota places for LA 2028 will be on offer. Not every sport will be at every city, but the final programs are yet to be determined, though if they say Orlando’s having flag football, I would not be surprised.
Alison Brown: Right, ‘
cause that’s, that’s an American thing. But [00:44:00] this’ll be, this makes so much sense because it’s, it’s kind of like an appetizer to get you- Yes … ready for the Olympics. the, the Q Series makes so much sense in terms of feeding so directly into your core product. And won’t this be fun in Montreal?
‘Cause I wonder if they’ll use some of the same ’76 spots, and they could say, “Oh, home of this event in ’76,” and you bring in that legacy. The same thing with Tokyo, some of those venues that we didn’t get to see very much [00:44:30] of.
I think it’s gonna be a lot of fun and, if you’re around, go and let us know or plan to go. It’d be– And if you can’t get tickets to the Olympic Games, next best thing. You’ll– You could see a whole bunch of sports in one go. And a whole bunch of Olympians. Yeah.
Challenging the current Olympic Games model
Alison Brown: the Olympic Games delivery section, this is a quote, “The current model can and should be challenged,” per Kirsty Coventry.
So IOC Operations Director Pierre Ducrey was on hand to talk about that. this is all [00:45:00] from the press conference after their recent executive board meeting, so th- this is why he’s on hand. Kirsty Coventry has given a clear mission to control the size of the games, and she talked about how London had 26 sports and LA has 36, and did not sound thrilled about the explosion of sports.
And, uh, they’re gonna review the program, and they are defining what is a discipline in a sport and that definition [00:45:30] is one or more events within a sport that require either a dedicated field of play or a significant modification to a field of play. So a good example is 3×3, which is a very different field of play from a full court five-on-five basketball or beach volleyball, which is, you know, with sand and indoor volleyball on a court.
So for Paris 2024, there were 28 sports and 47 disciplines, excluding the sports [00:46:00] proposed by the, organizing committee because breaking and skateboarding, surfing and climbing were not on this list of sports and disciplines. 18 sports were single discipline, so that would be like badminton, judo, rugby sevens.
Uh, 10 were multi-discipline. That’s aquatics, athletics, gymnastics, basketball, shooting.
Canoe, volleyball, cycling, equestrian, and wrestling. For winter games, there are four single discipline and three multipo- [00:46:30] multi-discipline sports. Uh, skiing is the biggest. It’s got 11 disciplines. And so now they want to look at those multi-discipline sports because disciplines affect field of plays and add complexities, i.e.
money. And they said it’s- Also not clear how a sport is added to or removed from the program, so they’re now figuring that out as well. Excellent,
because we have been very confused as to how a sport gets on there, and we have thought about this a lot, and we have researched it [00:47:00] multiple times and come up with nothing.
Jill Jaracz: And I can only imagine the room when Kirstie Coventry goes, “So tell me, how does a sport get onto the Olympic program?” And nobody has an answer. I can imagine the silence and the look on her face of not being pleased that nobody, like nobody knows. Like we are uncovering stuff here with this presidency.
And, and not that that’s a horrible thing. I just, I, you know, stuff [00:47:30] happens. And, just the whole like moving from a demonstration sport to this, well, you know, organizing committees can pick a few sports and maybe they’ll get added on if we think they’re really cool. Uh, but we don’t really know anymore how stuff gets added.
there was a question on complexity and economy of the games, and the response was that when they add sports and disciplines that need new venues, that’s where it gets more complex and more expensive. That changes the experience. It adds [00:48:00] costs for the stakeholders. So the IOC is asking itself how they can help make the games less complex, and they’re identifying many areas across the games and the ecosystem to do this, which is fascinating to me.
So, Pierre Ducray, the Olympic Games operating director, said that when they’re talking about adding and removing sports from the program, the athletes will need to be supported to facilitate that transition. And then, Kaven Merabi, who’s the IOC athletes [00:48:30] department director, said that 70% of summer athletes only go to one Olympics, so they want to work on supporting that journey and making that experience unique.
I-
Alison Brown: Oh, that’s interesting, 70%. That’s an interesting statistic.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and we talk a lot about, oh, you know, people go to so many more games now, but there’s still so many athletes who don’t.
Yeah, one and done.
Right. Well, I mean, when you think about how many athletes don’t make it to the [00:49:00] podium- Right
they probably are one and done, or they can’t make a second one work unless, unless there’s just something special about how they can support themselves. the tone of that, making that experience unique, kind of felt like it was hard to make that experience unique in Milano Cortina.
Alison Brown: Right.
Because of the spread. I have a feeling that we’re gonna find disciplines removed [00:49:30]
first. It, slim down how many races you have, how many versions of- Right … the 50 meters and the 100 meters and- Well,
Jill Jaracz: no, that doesn’t matter as much because that’s the same pool. Fair enough. You’re talking about do you have a track stadium and a marathon course and a race walking course?
Right. Do you have, a shooting has multiple types of a, an indoor venue and an outdoor venue. it, I didn’t even really feel like modern [00:50:00] pentathlon was on the line so much because they’ve managed to pair everything down to one stadium, and it’s a stadium you can pair with another sport, that may work.
So I’m, I’m very curious how this will work out. I mean, obviously the LA program is set, but we’re looking more at 2032 because they have not talked about the, finalized the sports that are on that program. But I also thought it was really interesting how you could tell that Kirstie [00:50:30] Coventry is only 10 years out of being an athlete.
Alison Brown: Right. I mean, she came in to clean house, which is really exciting, and, uh, she’s not part of the old boys network in, in that way, and not afraid to rattle some cages, which is really exciting.
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. So business as usual is not business as usual anymore. We, we think that’s what we’re getting from this first year for, for Kirstie Coventry.
they will be voting on the [00:51:00] 2030 French Alps program in June. There will definitely be no summer crossover sports included, just snow and ice. We talked about that last episode. Um, no decisions on the 2032 program until, uh, the fourth quarter of 2026 or the first quarter of 2027. And we should not expect to see 36 sports.
And Kirstie said that the host city contract does not require that many, so, uh, getting bigger is not the answer. [00:51:30] And, uh, the IOC wants to take control of this and not pass that hot potato over to Brisbane, and they wanna set up a good process. So that’s really, really interesting all in like let’s manage the scale of these games, ’cause I think the scale of LA is probably overwhelming.
Alison Brown: Yes. You know, it always has to, that, that pendulum swing, right? Because it, it swung so far now to making it bigger, bigger, bigger that it becomes unmanageable, and we have [00:52:00] to re- rein it in- Right … to just make it an event that people can enjoy and not look at and say, “I’m lost.”
Jill Jaracz: Yeah. And, uh, you know, for such a long time it was like build, build, build.
And we could get bigger and bigger ’cause you’re building the venues. But now that the, impetus is, “Don’t build, use existing venues,” the cry of getting bigger, bigger, bigger doesn’t work because all of a sudden you can only have a few cities that have enough venues for all of [00:52:30] this. Or you’re talking about making your games six months long.
At some point we can’t go back to those days. Okay, St. Louis. Looking at you.
Belarus back in, Russia still out
Jill Jaracz: Uh, Belarus is back in, Russia still suspended. This is mostly based on doping, and Kirsty Coventry mentioned a couple of times in this press conference about being an athlete in 2016 and seeing with her own eyes what was going on.
So that was really interesting to have [00:53:00] her be affected in a way by what was going on with the doping situation. So I think Russia, it, it’s gonna be a little while before they come back, even though Belarus is back in the fold. And I think there are some federations that are letting Russia in more and more, um, but we’ll see what happens at the Olympic level.
Getting into the discomfort zone
Jill Jaracz: And every once in a while we mention Mark Adams, who is the IOC, uh, press head, who is kind of like the emcee for these press conferences. And [00:53:30] he ended this with, “We’re gonna get back into our discomfort zone now.” Because
Alison Brown: Kirsty- Yeah, this has gotta be really uncomfortable when you’ve got a new president who is really, as we said, rattling cages.
Yes. And you want to figure out how you’re going to work with her and how this is all going to manage, and she’s just gung ho, full steam ahead, not, not worrying about where she’s going. In the [00:54:00] sense of if she steps on some toes, “Oh well, we’re gonna get this done.”
Jill Jaracz: R- right. And it’s gonna be big change, ’cause I think the change between Jacques Rogge and TBach, Thomas Bach, was not so different.
Yes. And Thomas Bach did a lot of platform work with his Agenda 2020s in sort of a reactionary way because cities weren’t bidding anymore. It was too expensive to bid. So that was a reaction to that. Kirsty Coventry’s coming in and is just like, [00:54:30] “Everybody’s gotta justify their existence.” Kind of thing.
And everybody is, seems to be getting pushed into their c- discomfort zone. And she’s like, “Hey, as an elite athlete, you’ve gotta be uncomfortable to go farther.” So that is, uh, what we’re gonna see from the IOC going forward. Exciting.
Team Keep the Flame Alive News
Jill Jaracz: Welcome to Shookflestan. It is the time of the show where we check in with our team Keep the Flame Alive. These are past guests and listeners of the show who make [00:55:00] up the t- our citizenship of our very own country, Shookflestan. Lot of fencing news. Lot of fencing news. Lot of fencing news.
Alison Brown: So Miles Chamley-Watson was at the Met Gala wearing a fencing mask that was painted.
It was pretty fantastic. Uh, fencer Kate Holmes has earned her doctorate degree, so it’s now Dr. Kat. And Lee Kiefer is pregnant, which is really exciting. And then fencers Maia Chamberlain and Alexander Massialas will take part in an event at the Museum of Chinese in [00:55:30] America in New York City called On the Strip: Chinese Americans in Fencing on Wednesday, May 27th from 6:30 to 8:30.
Jill Jaracz: Former luger Maura Grogan created an art quilt that has been juried into the Arizona Biennial and will be on display at the Tucson Museum of Art from May 22 to, through September 27, 2026.
Alison Brown: Former figure skater Gracie Gold received the 2026 Lifesavers Gala Public Service Lifesaver Award from the American Foundation for [00:56:00] Suicide Prevention.
Jill Jaracz: And congratulations to George Hirthler for winning four Southeast Emmy Awards for his film, The Games in Black and White, about Atlanta and the 1996 Olympics. The movie will have a special screening and filmmaker Q&A to celebrate the 30th anniversary of those games. That will take place at Terra Atlanta on July 18th at 1:30 PM.
Tickets are on sale now at terraatlanta.com, and we’ll have a link in the show notes.
Alison Brown: And congratulations to Book Club Claire on her recent engagement. [00:56:30] Yay, Claire! Pretty fabulous ring, that is.
Jill Jaracz: Before we wrap things up, we have a little programming note. it’s been a year, so we need a break. Milan Cortina was very stressful on a two-person operation.
you had a lot of travel immediately after. That was very stressful. You, you had a lot of travel- I had travel, yes … that was stressful immediately after. So we are taking a break, but we will have new episodes while we’re gone. They just won’t have current news with them. Uh, so Jenny Sichel will be back.
We’ve got some history stuff. [00:57:00] also, another installment of People Who Throw Things with, multi-Olympian javelin thrower Kara Winger, which is really exciting. So, uh, please do tune into those, and, uh, don’t forget that we are in Facebook still. We’ll still be hanging out there, and hang, you can hang out with other Para- Olympic and Paralympic fans there.
And we will be back after July 4th. So thank you so much for listening.
Alison Brown: And until next time, keep the flame [00:57:30] alive.